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Ok, I have a theory. When you go through puberty, you lose fat. This is attributed to Test and GH levels increasing...right? Well, why wouldn't AS make you litterally lose/burn fat? It's proven that increased test levels burn fat. Everyone keeps saying that AS don't make you lose fat. I know cardio/diet/training have alot to do with it; but generally speaking, why wouldn't they burn fat?
Peace
Fat is burned via a caloric deficit. Sounds simple, but its not. If it was, we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic..:) Two ways two create a caloric deficit. One, decrease calories consumed. Two, increase level of activity while keeping calories constant. Without getting too much in detail. To maintain or build muscle mass, you have to be in a state of positive nitrogen balance. When you decrease calories, usually in the form of fat and carbs, your body starts to burn more protein for fuel. So, top stay in a positive nitrogen balance, we'd increase out protein intake. Nitrogen balance in controlled via protein synthesis. The faster protein synthesis occurs, the easier it is to build and maintain muscle. Roids help in increasing protein synthesis via many different mechanims. The more free estrogen, the harder it is for your body to burn fat. Roids like tren and winny which don't aromotize create an androgen shift favorable for burning fat cause there produce no estrogen. In summary, roids make it easier to burn fat, maintain and build muscle while constricting calories.
Your theory is missing a basic understanding of the exercise phyiology of the body. If you want a more in detail explanation - you can research it cause I could right at least 50 pages on that if I wanted to be that detailed. That's the basic gist of it all.
I know you need it but personally... I HATE :shoot: ESTROGEN!
as said by the young chris farley in tommy boy...that was awhahasome! i was just gonna say they make burning fat easier. :lol: nice postQuote:
Originally posted by IME
Fat is burned via a caloric deficit. Sounds simple, but its not. If it was, we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic..:) Two ways two create a caloric deficit. One, decrease calories consumed. Two, increase level of activity while keeping calories constant. Without getting too much in detail. To maintain or build muscle mass, you have to be in a state of positive nitrogen balance. When you decrease calories, usually in the form of fat and carbs, your body starts to burn more protein for fuel. So, top stay in a positive nitrogen balance, we'd increase out protein intake. Nitrogen balance in controlled via protein synthesis. The faster protein synthesis occurs, the easier it is to build and maintain muscle. Roids help in increasing protein synthesis via many different mechanims. The more free estrogen, the harder it is for your body to burn fat. Roids like tren and winny which don't aromotize create an androgen shift favorable for burning fat cause there produce no estrogen. In summary, roids make it easier to burn fat, maintain and build muscle while constricting calories.
Really? Where's the proof? Can you quote an authoritative source or an academic study that shows that Test burns fat?Quote:
Originally posted by Big Rush
[B]It's proven that increased test levels burn fat.
No, damn ajax ya called me out :lol:Quote:
Originally posted by Ajax
Really? Where's the proof? Can you quote an authoritative source or an academic study that shows that Test burns fat?
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Rush
No, damn ajax ya called me out :lol:
:lol: :lol: :unsure:
SOLID
The simple fact is AAS do not make you lose fat. When bringing puberty in the equation, we _CAN_ draw a direct correlation between hightened growth hormone levels and fat loss. Let's also not overlook the obvious here; pubertal growth involves the growing of bones, where your bodyweight is spread over a greater total area, hence the reason many tall guys find problems in increasing LBM due to their large bone structure.Quote:
Originally posted by Big Rush
Ok, I have a theory. When you go through puberty, you lose fat. This is attributed to Test and GH levels increasing...right? Well, why wouldn't AS make you litterally lose/burn fat? It's proven that increased test levels burn fat. Everyone keeps saying that AS don't make you lose fat. I know cardio/diet/training have alot to do with it; but generally speaking, why wouldn't they burn fat?
Peace
GOOD POINT, JBrand:lift: :eat:Quote:
Originally posted by jbrand
The simple fact is AAS do not make you lose fat. When bringing puberty in the equation, we _CAN_ draw a direct correlation between hightened growth hormone levels and fat loss. Let's also not overlook the obvious here; pubertal growth involves the growing of bones, where your bodyweight is spread over a greater total area, hence the reason many tall guys find problems in increasing LBM due to their large bone structure.
AAS will help you loose fat! because they speed up your metabolism. But, they wont do it by themselves!!
Here's one.
Medical Abstract:
Mayo Clinic Proceedings January, 2000, Vol.75(Suppl)
J. Lisa Tenover, M.D., Ph.D.
Symposiom Article
Experience with Testosterone Replacement in the Elderly
To date, most of the studies of androgen replacement have been done with healthy older men (age > 55 years), and almost no data are available for frail elderly individuals. Treatment effects that make a relatively small difference in younger, more robust individuals may have a greater effect on the elderly, whose improvement in functioning and level of activity may be more dramatic. However, the frail elderly individual is also more vulnerable to adverse effects from treatment and these potential risks and benefits must be weighed.
Potential Benefits
Clinical Findings For older men, the potential benefits of androgen therapy include maintenance or improvement in bone density, improved body composition (i.e., ratio of fat to lean muscle mass), strength, libido and sexual function, mood, and improvement or maintenance of cognitive function. This discussion will focus on treatment for maintenance or improvement of bone density or for improved body composition and strength.
Effects on bone mineral density (BMD) and muscle mass have been the outcomes most studied. However, only limited data have been published on treatment in middle-aged and older men. Several studies are available only in abstract form.
Effects on Bone BMD of the lumbar spine increased in all studies for which data were available.
[b}Effects on Body Composition The study by Katznelson et. al., was longest in duration and produced the largest decrease in body fat. Lean body mass also changed favorably, increasing in three of the five studies, although not to the same degree as body fat decreased.[/b]
Effects on Strength Grip strength was shown to improve in nearly all of the studies that measured it, and it can serve as a fairly accurate predictor of overall strength.
Potential Risks
Liver Toxicity Liver toxicity has not been seen with the types of parenteral testosterone administered in clinical studies to older men.
Gynecomastia Breast enlargement or tenderness occasionally occurs (in < 2% of subjects), more frequently with administration of injectable testosterone. It usually can be resolved by lowering the dosage.
Fluid retention has not been a problem in the healthy men who have been treated with testosterone to date.
Effects on Prostate Health Currently, there is no evidence that, in an older man with a pretreatment testosterone level in the range of 200 to 400 ng/dL, raising the level to approximately 800 ng/dL will affect prostate mass.
Since PSA is made by androgen-dependent cells, one might expect an increase in PSA levels with replacement. However, only a few studies have resulted in data that reflect any change in PSA levels, and those studies show only small changes within the normal range. Uroflow rate, prostate size, prostate symptom scores, and other assessed factors showed no major effects in most studies.
Cardiovascular Risk Current data on cardiovascular risk suggest that it is better for men to have a high rather than a low testosterone level. In general , higher serum testosterone levels correlate with lower metabolic cardiovascular risk factors, including higher high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower levels of plasma fibrinogen, fasting insulin, and lipoprotien. Nonetheless, concerns about this issue tend to raise basic questions about why men have more cardiovascular disease than premenopausal women: Are estrogens protective, are androgens causative, or both? Recent well-controlled data are insufficient to provide a definitive answer.
In general, parenteral testosterone therapy in older men results in a decline in serum levels of total cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, and no change in HDL cholesterol, although a few new studies show a decline in HDL cholesterol with treatment. Perhaps various subfractions should be investigated further, but little evidence suggests that this particular aspect of cardiovascular risk represents a major problem.
Conclusion
Most of the available evidence suggests that testosterone replacement is potentially beneficial to aging men, particularly in the areas of bone density and body composition. The magnitude and longevity of the beneficial effects are not known, however.
The short-term treatment risks of adverse effects over three to four years of treatment appear to be predictable and easy to monitor and manage. To date, most of the studies of treatment benefits and risks have been performed on healthy older men.
meth comes through again!
Here's another.Quote:
Originally posted by BE_STRONG
meth comes through again!
http://www.cenegenics.com/drafts/draft20.html
damn... meshuselah, that's a good arcticle. Where the hell do you find this stuff?
"Potential Benefits
Clinical Findings For older men, the potential benefits of androgen therapy include maintenance or improvement in bone density, improved body composition (i.e., ratio of fat to lean muscle mass), strength, libido and sexual function, mood, and improvement or maintenance of cognitive function. This discussion will focus on treatment for maintenance or improvement of bone density or for improved body composition and strength."
Again the link between testosterone and increased LBM leading to a lower bodyfat correlation is noted. There is stilll no direct evidence linking heightened testosterone and fat/weight LOSS.
OK, Methuselah, let's get a dialogue going here! heh, heh!
The study you quoted referenced a further study by Katznelson et. al as noting that Testosterone therapy resulted in decreased body fat; well I did a little searching and found the study, here's the abstract:
OK, so using Testosterone decreases fat--at least for men with hypogonadism (decreased testicular function) that were, on average, 50+ years old. Also, the study was conducted over a period of 18 months.Quote:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1996 Dec;81(12):4358-65
Increase in bone density and lean body mass during testosterone administration in men with acquired hypogonadism.
Katznelson L, Finkelstein JS, Schoenfeld DA, Rosenthal DI, Anderson EJ, Klibanski A.
Neuroendocrine Unit, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston 02114, USA.
Acquired hypogonadism is being increasingly recognized in adult men. However, the effects of long term testosterone replacement on bone density and body composition are largely unknown. We investigated 36 adult men with acquired hypogonadism (age, 22-69 yr; median, 58 yr), including 29 men with central hypogonadism and 7 men with primary hypogonadism, and 44 age-matched eugonadal controls. Baseline evaluation included body composition analysis by bioimpedance, determination of site-specific adipose area by dual energy quantitative computed tomography scan (QCT) of the lumbar spine, and measurements of spinal bone mineral density (BMD) using dual energy x-ray absortiometry, spinal trabecular BMD with QCT, and radial BMD with single photon absorptiometry. Percent body fat was significantly greater in the hypogonadal men compared to eugonadal men (mean +/- SEM, 26.4 +/- 1.1% vs. 19.2 +/- 0.8%; P < 0.01). The mean trabecular BMD determined by QCT for the hypogonadal men was 115 +/- 6 mg K2HPO4/cc. Spinal BMD was significantly lower than that in eugonadal controls (1.006 +/- 0.024 vs. 1.109 +/- 0.028 g/cm2; P = 0.02, respectively). Radial BMD was similar in both groups. Testosterone enanthate therapy was initiated in 29 hypogonadal men at a dose of 100 mg/week, and the subjects were evaluated at 6-month intervals for 18 months. During testosterone therapy, the percent body fat decreased 14 +/- 4% (P < 0.001). There was a 13 +/- 4% decrease in subcutaneous fat (P < 0.01) and a 7 +/- 2% increase in lean muscle mass (P = 0.01) during testosterone therapy. Spinal BMD and trabecular BMD increased by 5 +/- 1% (P < 0.001) and 14 +/- 3% (P < 0.001), respectively. Radial BMD did not change. Serum bone-specific alkaline phosphatase and urinary deoxypyridinoline excretion, markers of bone formation and resorption, respectively, decreased significantly over the 18 months (P = 0.003 and P = 0.04, respectively). We conclude that testosterone therapy given to adult men with acquired hypogonadism decreases sc fat and increases lean muscle mass. In addition, testosterone therapy reduces bone remodeling and increases trabecular bone density. The beneficial effects of androgen administration on body composition and bone density may provide additional indications for testosterone therapy in hypogonadal men.
So there is a link FOR SOME MEN between Test. and fat loss; but was the fat loss a direct result of the Test. or was it caused indirectly by changes in lifestyle brough about by the Testosterone? For example: did the testosterone increase muscle strength therefore allowing for more physical activity, thus burning off more calories? Did the ability for these guys to 'get a woody' more frequently cause them to start to watch their waistline 'cuz they had new found hopes of getting laid?
So even if there is a correlation between fat loss and Test.., the fat loss might not be caused directly by the Test.
As for the Cenegenics study, it's NOT a study submitted to a journal for peer review, it's an in-house study for Cenegenics, by their own people, on their patients--a study that they are using to promote the effectiveness of their own program.
That does not make the 'study' false, but it does mean there are confilting motives; the better the results they get, the more clients they can sign on to their program. And again, this was a long-term study where the fat loss might have been a result of lifestyle changes and not directly attributable to any action by the testosterone.
(BTW, did you see the pices they charge? Damn! A few thousand US$ just for the 'screening and evaluation' Youch!)
So do AS cause fat loss? Well, possibly; but the link seems to be less than direct. If you look at something like T3 or Clenbuterol, they have a very direct effect of fat loss--they signal the body to burn fat. However AS seem to lead to lifestyle changes (or an increase in LBM) that leads to fat loss; not the AS causing fat to be burned.
And that leads me to another topic: we hear a lot about scientific studies about the negative side effects of AS; people are quick to throw that is our face. But what about the long-term benefits? Could it be possible that the benefits outweigh the negative and what we are doing might be, on the whole, beneficial for us? Hmmm. That's a thread right there!
Hmmm, all that research and nobody's gonna even comment? Bummer!
(Err, or should I be truthful and say "Bump her!")
I think this is right on the money....
Peace,
CC
Quote:
Originally posted by IME
Fat is burned via a caloric deficit. Sounds simple, but its not. If it was, we wouldn't have an obesity epidemic..:) Two ways two create a caloric deficit. One, decrease calories consumed. Two, increase level of activity while keeping calories constant. Without getting too much in detail. To maintain or build muscle mass, you have to be in a state of positive nitrogen balance. When you decrease calories, usually in the form of fat and carbs, your body starts to burn more protein for fuel. So, top stay in a positive nitrogen balance, we'd increase out protein intake. Nitrogen balance in controlled via protein synthesis. The faster protein synthesis occurs, the easier it is to build and maintain muscle. Roids help in increasing protein synthesis via many different mechanims. The more free estrogen, the harder it is for your body to burn fat. Roids like tren and winny which don't aromotize create an androgen shift favorable for burning fat cause there produce no estrogen. In summary, roids make it easier to burn fat, maintain and build muscle while constricting calories.
ajax...you make a strong point. every study i've seen on testosterone and fat loss is given by some company selling andro or some other over the counter testosterone booster. but maybe methuselah can provide some more studies.
AN OLDIE BUT A GOODIE!
Rush's question, Methuselah's answer, and Ajax's detailed and spot-on rebuttal are all worthy of revisiting.
If members would spend more time in the archives than the lounge, they'd learn a great deal.
That isn't to say the lounge can't educational, but you know what I'm saying!
Enjoy.
Chech out the profile for tren!
From my experiences. There is nice change in LBM/FAT ration in each cycle. My metabolism increase. You need energy for muscle build and when you are not eating enough calories you will burn your fat but not gain as much muscle but thats diferent story.
Main part of testosterone fat-burning capacity is just fact of increased LBM. When your LBM increase it will change ration to fat and than you look leaner and you are really lower on body fat scale.
For example
Iam starting cycle
Total weight: 210 lbs
BF: 13% (27.3 lbs)
LBM: 182.7 lbs
Iam endding cycle
Total weight: 230 lbs
BF: 11.9% (27.3 lbs)
LBM: 202.7 lbs
Iam bigger and leaner, but I cant say AS burn fat. What I can say... They build muscle and change LBM/FAT ratio!
Dude, 1200 posts and you still dont know that? I'm not trying to be an a s s, but go ask any doc or pharmacist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax
considering his profile says he last logged in 07-08-2002 at 11:02 AM, I don't think you will get a reply any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by aolsux00
^^^^^^:lol::nutkick:
thats really not correct... test and tren both have fat burning abilities... thats been my overwhelming experience... probably many other members here as well... furthermore there was no need for a calorie deficit, i was actually bulking with both compounds on many different occations
Fat cells do have androgen receptors, and testosterone as well as DHT tells them to shrink, were Estradiol does the opposite.
This does not instantly make you lose fat, and cardio + diet is still the most important part to losing it.
The other thing that AAS helps with is to maintain muscle while dieting/cardio.
Natural guys testosterone levels plummet when they diet or do excessive cardio. If a natural guy has a level of say 800 ng/dl of testosterone, and he diets and does a lot of cardio, his levels may fall to 400 ng/dl, and he will lose more muscle than fat.
If a guy is regularly injecting testosterone, to a blood level of say 1600ng/dl (low for AAS cycle, but just an idea), when he does a lot of cardio, and diets, his testosterone level is still 1600 ng/dl. He may lose a tiny little bit of muscle, but vast majority of size lost = just cutting off the fat. He will also maintain his sex drive, and mental ability to stay on the diet and cardio as well.- however he still has to do the diet or cardio (both is best) to lose the fat.
wow this thread is old i didn't even notice
Wow ths thread is old.Quote:
Originally Posted by J*U*icEd
You cannot even call it thread "necromancy".
This is like "Jurassic park"