One more cycle critique...

[BigJames]

I will not bore any of you with week to week details of my cycle, which will be my first, I will just say that I built a 13 week cycle that looks something like this...

Week 1-13 Test E 500mg/wk
Week 1-12 Eq 400mg/wk

There is anti-e's and AI in there as well as per several reputable people's suggestion as well as a Pheednos PCT at the end. I keep hearing people say that this is a great cycle and it was recommended to me via a post by TheMudMan called "cycles for the newbie", but I am also hearing that I should stick with one substance (Test) for my first cycle. What I want to clarify is...this is my first cycle...should I drop the Eq and use it in a future cycle? If I do that, what am I missing out on...I want to do the best thing for my body, but I also want to get as much as possible out of this cycle...any advice is welcome...

Thanks

[fitnessguy]

I say run the Eq with it. Eq is very mild. Be prepared to wait about 4 weeks for any of it to kick in though. What's your stats?

[fitnessguy]

oh yeah, what ya got for anti-e's and PCT?

[BigJames]

I was thinking the same thing fitnessguy...that Eq is mild and has so few sides that it would not make for many problems. My stats...

29years
6'1"
235 lbs
18% BF

Not sure what else you might want to know...

[GOATNUTS]

I will not bore any of you with week to week details of my cycle, which will be my first, I will just say that I built a 13 week cycle that looks something like this...

Week 1-13 Test E 500mg/wk
Week 1-12 Eq 400mg/wk

There is anti-e's and AI in there as well as per several reputable people's suggestion as well as a Pheednos PCT at the end. I keep hearing people say that this is a great cycle and it was recommended to me via a post by TheMudMan called "cycles for the newbie", but I am also hearing that I should stick with one substance (Test) for my first cycle. What I want to clarify is...this is my first cycle...should I drop the Eq and use it in a future cycle? If I do that, what am I missing out on...I want to do the best thing for my body, but I also want to get as much as possible out of this cycle...any advice is welcome...

Thanks

bro i would go with it. thats a very good cycle imo. i liked mine.

[BigJames]

Anti-e's and PCT...here is the whole cycle....including PCT, AI, and Trib.

2 weeks prior to first shot Letro 1mg EOD
2 weeks prior to first shot Trib 1g ED
1-9 Trib 1g ED
9-19 Trib 3g ED
1-13 Test E 500mg/week
1-12 Eq 400mg/week
1-13 Letro 1mg MWF
1-15 Nolva 10mg ED
15-19 Nolva 20mg ED
15-16 Clomid 200/100/100/50/50/50/50/50...

I got some pointers already in the PCT forum regarding use of the Clomid and Letro...but I have not made any changes yet...

[BigJames]

bro i would go with it. thats a very good cycle imo. i liked mine.

Thanks Goat. I appreciate the feedback...what were your gains like on this?

[GOATNUTS]

i gained 20lbs and keep 18lbs of lean muscle. barely any sides. just the occasional acne but not to much to be concerned with or could not be medicated and gone the next day or two. and some extreme hunger from the eq. be ready to eat

[fitnessguy]

I was thinking the same thing fitnessguy...that Eq is mild and has so few sides that it would not make for many problems. My stats...

29years
6'1"
235 lbs
18% BF

Not sure what else you might want to know...

also need to know what color hair you have, how many teeth, and a shoe size...

jk that's what i was askin.
with 18% bf ya might not get the vascularity effects of Eq, but it's still good for quality weight and increased appetite.

[BigJames]

i gained 20lbs and keep 18lbs of lean muscle. barely any sides. just the occasional acne but not to much to be concerned with or could not be medicated and gone the next day or two. and some extreme hunger from the eq. be ready to eat

I am always ready to eat! What did you use as medication for acne?

[BigJames]

also need to know what color hair you have, how many teeth, and a shoe size...

jk that's what i was askin.
with 18% bf ya might not get the vascularity effects of Eq, but it's still good for quality weight and increased appetite.

Lets see...hair is brown...j/k...I bet a whole whack a newbs would fall for that! Anyway, I cannot start this cycle for a while due to other things going on right now, and I am on a diet right now to get down to between 10 -15% before starting this cycle. I am already pretty big and the last thing I want is to look fat.

[fitnessguy]

the only thing i see is:
run clomid a little longer (3-4 weeks) and i would run it at 100mg for longer too.
can't remember but i think you need to taper the letro to prevent an estrogen rebound.
I would also run trib. through PCT

[fitnessguy]

Lets see...hair is brown...j/k...I bet a whole whack a newbs would fall for that! Anyway, I cannot start this cycle for a while due to other things going on right now, and I am on a diet right now to get down to between 10 -15% before starting this cycle. I am already pretty big and the last thing I want is to look fat.

awesome idea. try to get in the 10-12% range and you'll be more than happy....

[BigJames]

awesome idea. try to get in the 10-12% range and you'll be more than happy....

That is the plan. I am going to run the trib all the way through to the end. I will extend the Clomid a little more and bump the dose. From what I have read, Nolva is a better stimulator so I am concentrating more on the Nolva. I am wary of the letro...Estrogen rebound, although I do not know what it is, does not sound good. I cannot get a clear idea from anyone on exactly how to use the letro...I know what it does, but I have gotten something close to 4 totally different ideas as to how to use it....

[fitnessguy]

That is the plan. I am going to run the trib all the way through to the end. I will extend the Clomid a little more and bump the dose. From what I have read, Nolva is a better stimulator so I am concentrating more on the Nolva. I am wary of the letro...Estrogen rebound, although I do not know what it is, does not sound good. I cannot get a clear idea from anyone on exactly how to use the letro...I know what it does, but I have gotten something close to 4 totally different ideas as to how to use it....

The clomid is what's gonna bring your natural test levels back up and your nuts back from hiding, therefore helps determine how much you will keep when all is said and done. The nolva will help prevent you from getting boobs. The letro will pretty much totally block estrogen so i would taper it down over the course of a few weeks so that your estrogen levels will slowly go back to normal rather than a big jump. Nolva during this time will help tremendously.
I run my letro ED, but EOD is just fine. I start it 2-3 weeks before cycle and taper it off at the end.

[BigJames]

The clomid is what's gonna bring your natural test levels back up and your nuts back from hiding, therefore helps determine how much you will keep when all is said and done. The nolva will help prevent you from getting boobs. The letro will pretty much totally block estrogen so i would taper it down over the course of a few weeks so that your estrogen levels will slowly go back to normal rather than a big jump. Nolva during this time will help tremendously.
I run my letro ED, but EOD is just fine. I start it 2-3 weeks before cycle and taper it off at the end.

Sounds good...I did some pretty good research on clomid and nolva though and I found that although people generally use Nolva during and clomid for PCT, the Nolva actually blocks estrogen and stimulates the recovery of natty levels. This was covered really well in Pheednos PCT program as well as the following post which is from bodybuilding.com

[BigJames]

From BBing.com:

Characteristics:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

[fitnessguy]

Sounds good...I did some pretty good research on clomid and nolva though and I found that although people generally use Nolva during and clomid for PCT, the Nolva actually blocks estrogen and stimulates the recovery of natty levels. This was covered really well in Pheednos PCT program as well as the following post which is from bodybuilding.com

yes it does and clomid also acts as a mild estrogen blocker....
Good luck with your cycle. looks very good. you've done your research...

[BigJames]

This is from our own site's steroid profiles...

"Several bodybuilders like to use Nolvadex at the end of a steroid cycle since it increases the body's own testosterone production -which will be discussed in more detail in the following-to counter-act the side effects caused by the estrogens."

[BigJames]

yes it does and clomid also acts as a mild estrogen blocker....
Good luck with your cycle. looks very good. you've done your research...

Thanks man, I really wanted to learn everything I could before starting this...all of the above aside, I am going to sue both clomid and nolva post-cycle to ensure that all my bases are covered. Thanks for everyone's insight on this...

[scriptfactory]

This is from our own site's steroid profiles...

"Several bodybuilders like to use Nolvadex at the end of a steroid cycle since it increases the body's own testosterone production -which will be discussed in more detail in the following-to counter-act the side effects caused by the estrogens."

I've seen people post that clomid is necessary for PCT (probably erroneously) but I've also seen several studies that nolva is actually the more potent anti-estrogen AND is better for PCT as it has less side effects. I have a friend that has permanent vision difficulties (tracers) due to clomid use, and that is some sh!i that I definitely don't want. I'm going to use HCG + Nolva for my PCT as I have read about a few people's experiences with it and they have said it was vastly superior to Clomid + Nolva. Less sides and quicker restoration of your natural testosterone sounds great to me.

[BigJames]

I've seen people post that clomid is necessary for PCT (probably erroneously) but I've also seen several studies that nolva is actually the more potent anti-estrogen AND is better for PCT as it has less side effects. I have a friend that has permanent vision difficulties (tracers) due to clomid use, and that is some sh!i that I definitely don't want. I'm going to use HCG + Nolva for my PCT as I have read about a few people's experiences with it and they have said it was vastly superior to Clomid + Nolva. Less sides and quicker restoration of your natural testosterone sounds great to me.

That is exactly what I am talking about script. I read all these studies and it backs up the idea that Nolva is better than clomid at some of this stuff, but there are a lot of guys on this forum who will disagree. I am probably going to use both Nolva and Clomid, but I am def going to use less clomid than might be prescribed by others...I do not want vision problems. There was another member on this board who stated that he NEVER uses clomid any more because it affected his vision and he has no problems recovering from cycles without clomid.