Hcg Through Out Cycle

I am planning to go back "on" in a few months. I want to add hcg 2X per week through out the cycle. I have been doing research for a while and I have a few questions. This is the cycle I plan on doing:

WK 1-4 DBOL 20mg ED
WK 1-16 EQ 600mg
WK 2-16 PRIMO 600mg
WK 1-16 TEST CYP 200mg
WK 4-12 PROVIRON 100mg ED
WK 1-16 HCG (250iu SUN-250iu WEDS)


1. I want to use 250ius hcg 2X A week (sun/weds). Will this amount be sufficient for my AAS doses? I noticed that the swale hcg protocol is used for HRT doses.

2. My cycle will be fairly long (16 wks) , will 16 weeks of hcg be harmful?

3. I plan on shooting the hcg on my inject days (sun/weds)..Should I start the hcg the same day I start my cycle?

-thanks in advance...

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Originally Posted by FOCUS 5

1. I want to use 250ius hcg 2X A week (sun/weds). Will this amount be sufficient for my AAS doses? I noticed that the swale hcg protocol is used for HRT doses.

2. My cycle will be fairly long (16 wks) , will 16 weeks of hcg be harmful?

3. I plan on shooting the hcg on my inject days (sun/weds)..Should I start the hcg the same day I start my cycle?

-thanks in advance...

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1. That is suppose to be sufficient. Not just hrt doses but hrt therapy(for life).

2. I think anything over 4 weeks even at low doses your body could become dependent on hcg. I run it different than some and will not debate what I know works for me... Make sure there is 6 weeks in between hcg uses also, but again that is my opinion.

3. I would not and if you must shoot swales protocol, then just run it the last 4 weeks of your cycle, that is based on my previous opinions.

-Your welcome...

sent you a pm focus.

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Originally Posted by toc67guru

sent you a pm focus.

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Hey bro for some reason I can't access my pms. Its says that I'm a new member or some ****. Hit me up with an email if you can(click on my username).

16 weeks seems like a very long time to be on hcg at any dose. I read that 2 or 3 weeks (maybe 4) is the longest and ya shouldleave at least 4 or 5 weeks before usin it again.

I've never heard of running HCG throughout your cycle. My MD who is bodybuilder prescribes HCG for MID cycle and PCT.

Basically if you are on for 16 weeks you would use 10000iu's at 1000IU's per day for 10 days right in the middle of your cycle and at the beginning of PCT. You are using it to boost your bodies production of natural testosterone. If it is suppressed for 8 weeks, jump start production for 10 days then continue on til the end and jump start it again to sucessfully transition through PCT.

I have always done it this way and love it. You make your best gains right in the middle when your test production spikes.

I agree that HCG should not be ran that long. Secondly you are not running any large amounts of test so I personally don't even see the need for HCG with that cycle.

have a read at this.it was written by swale the trt specialist who also has AAS using patients:-

(quote)I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that EDGY,BURNED-OUT FEELING they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

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Originally Posted by toc67guru

have a read at this.it was written by swale the trt specialist who also has AAS using patients:-

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This is for someone on hrt doses for life... Again, it is a great study and protocol, but for someone who will take testosterone the rest of their life. Read the whole article, please.

i disagree mesomorphyl.
yes swale is a trt doctor but he also has steroid cycling bodybuliders as patients(who are not on trt) who he carries out blood work for.
he states that using hcg through the cycle and keeping estrogen within normal range hastens recovery.
hypogonadal males on trt do not recover they are on testosterone for life so imo swale is talking about someone with a normal functioning HPTA cycling steroids and recovering HPTA function through pct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by toc67guru

he states that using hcg through the cycle and keeping estrogen within normal range hastens recovery.
hypogonadal males on trt do not recover they are on testosterone for life so imo swale is talking about someone with a normal functioning HPTA cycling steroids and recovering HPTA function through pct.

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Being on test alone, above hrt doses, will raise estrogen above normal ranges.

And you are right "hypogonadal males on trt do not recover they are on testosterone for life ". So how can your opinion be "imo swale is talking about someone with a normal functioning HPTA cycling steroids and recovering HPTA function through pct."? That is what we call a contradiction.

16 weeks is long,...you only need to run it 2-3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

This is for someone on hrt doses for life... Again, it is a great study and protocol, but for someone who will take testosterone the rest of their life. Read the whole article, please.

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I agree, i read this somewhere else when i was researching hcg and the article does relate to people on hrt. Iv found it very difficult to get a solid answer to doses and time for hcg. Best i could come up with was to use it for about 2 weeks when your about 3 weeks into your cycle(or earlier if you notice shrinkage), then leave it for at least 4 weeks and do it for about 2 or 3(or maybe 4) weeks at the end of your cycle. Using it to much and for to long is not good

the fact that swale states "hastens recovery".
i think the definition of recovery speaks for itself.
in relation to increasing doses higher than trt doses yes you are right will increase estrogen above normal range however these are easily rectified by using an anti aromatising drug like letro or arimidex.

click this link to his website and see that he not only treats trt patients but also steroid taking atheletes:-

http://www.allthingsmale.com/frames.html

you may have to copy and paste this.

Thanks for all the replies bros... great info! I think I run the low dose hcg (500sun/500weds) for weeks 1-5 and then a a few weeks mid cylce.
Then I will follow the normal hcg protocol during my last 2 weeks and I will take clo/nolva/natural test boosting herbs for PCT.

I will take a blood test after my pct and keep you guys posted on the results.

toc67guru's article makes a very good point;why not avoid shrinkage rather than allow it to happen and then try reverse. But iv read that using hcg for long periods will desensitize your testicles to the effect of LH, which aint what ya want.

Is it just me or is hcg just really **** confusing?!?!?

Right, but the main thing I've heard it that HIGH doses, not prolonged ones are the culprit.

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Originally Posted by TrumanHW

Right, but the main thing I've heard it that HIGH doses, not prolonged ones are the culprit.

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Yeah thats quite possible. I still think that 2 weeks of use roughly 3 weeks into the cycle, then 2-4 weeks at the end would be enough for gettin your testicles back to normal size. Like i said though, i cant find a definitive answer which doesnt have some conflicting argument standing against it when it comes to hcg. :scratch:

Yeah, thanks to the FDA we have to do our own trial and error testing.

truman is right it is high doses of hcg over a prolonged period that desensitises the leydig cells.swale does not recommend higher than 500iu/daily as higher doses will lead to more aromatisation, and it is high aromatise activity that is thought to cause the desensitisation.

in the same article i took this from swale also gives his pct theory on clomid and nolvodex.if as mesomorphyl suggests this therapy is only for trt patients there would be no need for pct as hypogonadal males will not recover an already defunct HPTA.that is why imho it is directed to those who have a healthy functioning HPTA who are looking the quickest and most effective recovery via pct.

no disrespect intended to mesomorphyl.it is only by reading the full article is this apparent.
i will try and post it for everyone to read and make up their own minds to the intended interpretation of the protocol.

i agree i think hcg therapy is not fully understood so there is conflicting info.
i personally would go by swale purely because he is going by experience reading blood result of numerous atheletes.

as promised here is a copy of the ariticle:-

My PCT Protocol (posted by swale)
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.