cycle critique

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 11:17 AM

My current cycle is structured as follows. I have not began it yet. I know EQ and Winny only aromatize together mildly. However, I figured id rather be careful, and take a preventative anti-estrogen during the cycle. Would arimidex (AI) or nolvadex (SERM) be a better choice and at what protocol, if any? How does the rest of the cylce look? (not looking for massive, but quality gains while minimizing certain side effects such as water retention, hair loss, gyno)

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9
HCG 500 IU'S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 12-13
Nolvadex 20mg/day

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 11:28 AM

you need test bro first off. are you planning on running EQ for 6 weeks? age, stats, lifting/cycle experience, etc.

**MatrixGuy** · 05-10-2005, 11:30 AM

This cylcle ain't looking too good.
1./ You really want to be running some kinda test
2./ EQ needs to be run longer than 6 weeks
3./ Wheres your pct?

I would research alot more before starting anything bro.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 11:44 AM

I disagree about "needing" test. Actually I am trying to avoid some of the side effects that come along with test which is why i stayed away from it. I am also looking to gain "quality" muscle and retain most of it whihc is why i stayed away from test. Why is it neccesary, not all cycles need test depending ont he goal, and if so id like to see an argument for ALL cases? I only ran the EQ at 6 weeks because i ran it at higher doses then i really need for a shorter time. I was previously told this was fine. My pct is the nolva alone, 3 weeks after the cessation of EQ I begin.

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 12:01 PM

yes all cycles need test...ALL CYCLES! you are wrong on this issue. if you were told running EQ at 6 weeks was fine, someone lied as it needs to be run longer, and nolva alone will not be suffienct PCT in order to get your HPTA back. i am sorry bro, but this cycle is very poor.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 12:13 PM

Ok, I restructured the EQ to run for 8 weeks as opposed to 6. However, I have two remaining questoins. Does everyone think it is absolutely neccesary to incorporate test into EVERY cycle even when looking to minimize specific side effects? If so, how can I incorporate the smallest amt of test possible to not see side effects while getting the benefits of test in the cycle? Also, do i need a preventitive anti-estrogen during the cycle? And is arimidex or nolva more appropriate and at what protocol? Thanks for the help

Week 1
Equipoise 1000mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 2-3
Equipoise 500mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 500mg/week
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Equipoise 500mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9-10
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 11
HCG 500 IU'S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 12-13
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week14-15
Nolvadex 20mg/day

***G-1000*** · 05-10-2005, 12:15 PM

you need test as a base in all cycles.

**tempbrit** · 05-10-2005, 12:21 PM

I think a case could be made for VAR only cycle. I have seen several run Var on its own. However, you are giving up so much when you don't add the Test.

I love Test! Love it!

My experience has been awesome with Test.

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 12:23 PM

bro...i am sorry but you need to run the EQ at 12 weeks. if you don't have enough, get more. you should run your test at a higher dose than your EQ. the sides aren't as bad as you think they are and if you take 10-20mg of Nolva ED than this may reduce sides. you should run your test one week longer than EQ. as i stated before Nolva is not sufficient PCT. you need clomid. TEST IN EVERY CYCLE i cannot stress this enough.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 12:29 PM

sorry im not buying that EQ has to be run at 12 weeks... Im a naturally lean guy lookin to put on quality muscle. Does anyone else see it neccesary to run EQ fro 12 weeks? I need someone elses input.

**bigpimpnyc** · 05-10-2005, 12:41 PM

I would run the eq a little longer (like 12 weeks) but if you want to run it 8 you should see some gains I would also run clomid pct. I agree with you that you do not have to run test. I have done eq/var alone with great results and almost no sides. (205lbs 12%bf to 218lbs 9%bf great strength and endurance gains) Would running at least maintenance test during the cycle be a good thing? yea, but I cannot agree that it is a must.

**Booz** · 05-10-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by longislandbeast

sorry im not buying that EQ has to be run at 12 weeks... Im a naturally lean guy lookin to put on quality muscle. Does anyone else see it neccesary to run EQ fro 12 weeks? I need someone elses input.

you wanto do sum research here about eq mate,it takes at least 7-8 weeks to start workin properly so 8 weeks would b useless,eq should b run for at least 12 weeks if not longer!

**Booz** · 05-10-2005, 01:20 PM

i would also advise using some form of test in every cycle mate,you can just use eq but i advise against it,you will more than likely get shut down mate,you will lose your sex drive and we dont want that to happen do we?

**longhorn814** · 05-10-2005, 01:26 PM

Eq has to be run at least 12 weeks. It is a very long acting ester and takes 6 weeks or so to build up in your system before you begin to see any results. No test = no cycle. Why are you afraid of running test? Eq works very synergistically w/ test, however, it wont do much without it. Plus you dont want to lose your sex drive do you? Its a very good possibility if you dont run test.

**marc101** · 05-10-2005, 01:27 PM

EQ alone will kill your libido, do some more research. Im sure there are people on here who have done and learned the hard way

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 01:28 PM

lol...do you believe me now??? i am not making this shit up.

**bigpimpnyc** · 05-10-2005, 01:34 PM

I agree that he should run the EQ longer. That is correct. What I disagree with is the theory that you HAVE to run test everytime. I have run EQ/VAR without test and have made nice gains. As significant as with test? no, but still solid, hard gains with no bloat.

**Booz** · 05-10-2005, 01:41 PM

everybod has their own opinions about most things mate,each to their own,wat i am sayin you cn run most things alone whatever floats your boat n all that,but when there is a severe chance that you will lose your sex drive why take the risk?he may b ok he may not,at the end of the day he will do wat he wants to anyhow.

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 01:45 PM

but at that time you were running it, your body was not producing test as your HPTA was shut down with EQ and you weren't injecting a synthetic test, so your you had basically NO test in your body.

**longhorn814** · 05-10-2005, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by bigpimpnyc

I agree that he should run the EQ longer. That is correct. What I disagree with is the theory that you HAVE to run test everytime. I have run EQ/VAR without test and have made nice gains. As significant as with test? no, but still solid, hard gains with no bloat.

not everybody runs test w/ their cycles, but then again everybody's bodies are different. However most people do run it b/c they dont wont to be shut down and it works so well with all other gear. Just b/c you didnt have a problem, doesnt mean that somebody else wont. Is the risk really worth it?

**bigpimpnyc** · 05-10-2005, 01:52 PM

True, on both resposes, but to say that he is wasting his time without test is not accurate either. Personally, test tends to bloat me even with anti e's and I don't get sexual sides without test (I also run 2gs of trib per day) Again, a maintenence dose of test is probably a good idea but not necessary for everyone.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 02:25 PM

I am running HCG on a 500iu every sat and sun (weekend protocol). Shouldnt this help to keep my body producing some test and not get desensitized? If i did chose to add test was the minimun i could add (ex. maitenence dose). I am really concerned about quality muscle, little aromitization, and hair loss. Therefore test is not what i would choose to do.

RA · 05-10-2005, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by longislandbeast

My current cycle is structured as follows. I have not began it yet. I know EQ and Winny only aromatize together mildly. However, I figured id rather be careful, and take a preventative anti-estrogen during the cycle. Would arimidex (AI) or nolvadex (SERM) be a better choice and at what protocol, if any? How does the rest of the cylce look? (not looking for massive, but quality gains while minimizing certain side effects such as water retention, hair loss, gyno)

Week 1-3
Equipoise 800mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-6
Equipoise 600mg/week
Winstrol Tabs 50mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 7-8
Winstrol Tabs 50 mg/day
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 9
HCG 500 IU'S SAT/SUN
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 10-11
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 12-13
Nolvadex 20mg/day

If you want my .02-it sucks.

**longhorn814** · 05-10-2005, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by longislandbeast

I am running HCG on a 500iu every sat and sun (weekend protocol). Shouldnt this help to keep my body producing some test and not get desensitized? If i did chose to add test was the minimun i could add (ex. maitenence dose). I am really concerned about quality muscle, little aromitization, and hair loss. Therefore test is not what i would choose to do.

youre concerned about hairloss and youre taking winny? You realize Winny is a DHT derivate and is probably the hardest on the hairline if youre prone to MPB? Test can convert to DHT, but not all of it.. Test is the best!!!

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 02:52 PM

Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in re-estab-lishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a-result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production.

Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a readjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use. For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin another steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids " for at least two to three weeks.

**susta12** · 05-10-2005, 02:55 PM

i I just started 1cc deca and 1cc sustanon and injected in my ass, next day a lump at lower back can you help me??

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 02:56 PM

Ok after listening to the advice of some of you guys. I have constructed a new cycle with Test-E. How are the dosages? Is the HCG protocol in this cycle which lasts 8 weeks too long, allowing for possible desensitization? Since one of my main concerns is hairloss does anyone reccommend nething such as fina or propecia with the cycle? If so where does one obtain this? Thanks.

Week 1
Equipoise 1000mg/week
Test-E 1000mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 2-3
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Weeks 4-11
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 12
Equipoise 500mg/week
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle
*if necessary: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Week 13-14
Nolvadex 40mg/day

Week 15-16
Nolvadex 20mg/day

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by FrkyBgStok

Although HCG does stimulate endogenous testosterone production, it does not help in re-estab-lishing the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. The hypothalamus and pituitary are still in a refractory state after prolonged steroid usage, and remain this way while HCG is being used, because the endogenous testosterone produced as a-result of the exogenous HCG represses the endogenous LH production.

Once the HCG is discontinued, the athlete must still go through a readjustment period. This is merely delayed by the HCG use. For this reason experienced athletes often take Clomid and Clenbuterol following HCG intake or they immediately begin another steroid treatment. Some take HCG merely to get off the "steroids" for at least two to three weeks.

You meant clomid or nolva, right?

**longhorn814** · 05-10-2005, 03:16 PM

Dont frontload the test e and eq in the first week. Waste of gear according to most. Run the Eq for 12 and test for 13 so PCT times line up accordingly.

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by longislandbeast

You meant clomid or nolva, right?

no...there is no OR....you need both clomid and nolva.

**yenstrol** · 05-10-2005, 03:34 PM

Listen to the STOK he knows his shit. come on man

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 03:51 PM

Ok so what do you think of this... New structure includes no frontload. L-dex ran at .25mg ED from week 3-14. Then clomid and nolva post cycle. Are these dosages ok for a first timer. How about the HCG use and its potential for desensitization.

Week 1
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week

Week 2
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week

Week 3
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week
L-dex .25mg ED

Weeks 4-12
Equipoise 500mg/week
Test-E 500mg/week
L-dex .25mg ED
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle

Week 12
Test-E 500mg/week
L-dex .25mg ED
HCG 500 IU'S EVERY SAT/SUN
Milk Thistle

Week 13-14
HCG 500 IU's EVERY SAT/SUN
L-dex .25mg ED

Week 14-15
Clomid 100mg ED
Nolvadex 20mg ED

Week 16-17
Nolvadex 20mg ED

**yenstrol** · 05-10-2005, 03:55 PM

I would run Nolva at 20mg ed throughout

**longhorn814** · 05-10-2005, 04:00 PM

dont frontload the test either, and you need to run the test a week longer than Eq

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 04:03 PM

OK no frontload at all. Also the test is ran one week longer then the EQ. EQ week 1-12, test-e week 1-13. How about the dosages, HCG protocol (worried about desensitization, and AI use during/SERM post?

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 04:17 PM

doses look good, HCG may not be necessary, and clomid needs to be run longer than a week. run clomid 100mg ED for 4-5 weeks. you could drop to 50mg at week 4 or 5.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 04:22 PM

well should i bother with the HCG or not? also I had Clomid running for 2 weeks. I have heard bad things about clomid as far as emotional ups and downs etc. I was hoping to use it as little as possible. Cant I use the clomid for 2 weeks at 100 mg ED with Nolva at 20 mg ED and then use Nolva to complete PCT.

**FrkyBgStok** · 05-10-2005, 04:34 PM

no...you can get ups and downs with clomid but it is something you kinda have to go through. using it for two weeks won't bring your HPTA back up. AT LEAST run for 3 weeks at 300mg one day, 100mg/day for 10 days, and 50mg/day for 10 days. As i say this is only a minimum.

**longislandbeast** · 05-10-2005, 04:41 PM

ok so PCT would look like this:

Day 1
Clomid 300mg
Nolva 60/mg

Day 2-11
Clomid 100mg ED
Nolva 20mg ED

Day 12-21
Clomid 50mg ED
Nolva 20mg ED

Day 22-28
Nolva 20 mg/day