Anabolics
Search More Than 6,000,000 Posts
Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    Magnum357's Avatar
    Magnum357 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    74

    NOLVADEX actually INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS????

    This quote is from Anabolic Review's steriod description of Nolvadex ....???

    "A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it."

    What do ya think? I've experienced worsening bitch tit symptoms with Nolvadex before....

    Anyone ever hear of "AROMASTIN 25mg"..... My connection says these are the BEST anti-estrogens, but they are $300 for 20 tabs!!!!

  2. #2
    PunkRawk is offline Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Los Angeles , CA
    Posts
    506
    aromasin supposedly completely blocks estrogen forever..."supposedly" ever hear how you can turn off the mystatin in muscles...thsi drug supposedly turns off the conversion for ever...

  3. #3
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    not sure about the validity of that punkrawk.. no flame, but that is hard to believe. From what I understand about aromasin it permanetly binds to the aromatase enzyme, whereas arimidex /liquidex and femara temporarily bind to it. Im not sure that this means there will be no more aromatase period after the aromasin is stopped... maybe someone else knows this.

    If it did permanetly block aromatase forever (life span) then cholesterol levels and bone density would end up very very bad due to the lack of estrogen.

    Regardless, arimidex/liquidex is what I would use.

  4. #4
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    nolva will never decrease your estrogen levels. it just prevents estrogen receptors from binding to estrogen. if estrogen levels increase it shouldn't matter because the receptors would be occupied by nolva and estrogen wouldn't be able to bind.

  5. #5
    jbrand's Avatar
    jbrand is offline Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    760

    Re: NOLVADEX actually INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS????

    Originally posted by Magnum357
    This quote is from Anabolic Review's steriod description of Nolvadex ....???

    "A very rare but all the more serious problem of Nolvadex is that in some cases it does not lower the estrogen level but can increase it."

    What do ya think? I've experienced worsening bitch tit symptoms with Nolvadex before....

    Anyone ever hear of "AROMASTIN 25mg"..... My connection says these are the BEST anti-estrogens, but they are $300 for 20 tabs!!!!
    food for thought:

    Kiang DT; Kollander RE; Thomas T; Kennedy BJ. Up-regulation of estrogen
    receptors by nonsteroidal antiestrogens in human breast cancer. Cancer Res 1989
    Oct 1;49(19):5312-6.

    Development of resistance to hormonal therapy in breast cancer is frequently
    associated with a decline or loss of cellular estrogen receptors. Agents which
    up-regulate the receptor may reduce the incidence of hormonal resistance.
    Antiestrogens at concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 1 microM produced a 2- to
    4-fold increase of estrogen receptors in MCF-7 and T-47D breast cancer cells.
    This increase, which occurred as early as 3 h and was sustained throughout the
    4 days of continuous exposure to tamoxifen , was primarily due to an enhancement
    in receptor synthesis.

  6. #6
    Magnum357's Avatar
    Magnum357 is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    74

    Re: Re: NOLVADEX actually INCREASING ESTROGEN LEVELS????

    BUMP


    Originally posted by jbrand


    food for thought:

    Kiang DT; Kollander RE; Thomas T; Kennedy BJ. Up-regulation of estrogen
    receptors by nonsteroidal antiestrogens in human breast cancer. Cancer Res 1989
    Oct 1;49(19):5312-6.

    Development of resistance to hormonal therapy in breast cancer is frequently
    associated with a decline or loss of cellular estrogen receptors. Agents which
    up-regulate the receptor may reduce the incidence of hormonal resistance.
    Antiestrogens at concentrations ranging from 0.1 to 1 microM produced a 2- to
    4-fold increase of estrogen receptors in MCF-7 and T-47D breast cancer cells.
    This increase, which occurred as early as 3 h and was sustained throughout the
    4 days of continuous exposure to tamoxifen , was primarily due to an enhancement
    in receptor synthesis.

  7. #7
    Nate_Dog's Avatar
    Nate_Dog is offline Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    OZ
    Posts
    765
    Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

    It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

    Pls help us out on this one.

    Thx

  8. #8
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    Originally posted by Nate_Dog
    Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

    It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

    Pls help us out on this one.

    Thx
    bump

  9. #9
    latman49's Avatar
    latman49 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    527
    Bump, this need's to be up with the HCG thread.

  10. #10
    flex321's Avatar
    flex321 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    606
    if nolvadex isnt taken long enough when you come off it all the estrogen that was blocked will all of a sudden be free and bind.

  11. #11
    jbrand's Avatar
    jbrand is offline Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    760
    please note: i have yet to start a cycle without 10-20mg nolvadex EOD despite this evidence I found. i was just putting some conflicting information I found out there for debate, despite the contradicting experience I have had with this particular substance.

  12. #12
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    Originally posted by Nate_Dog
    Dr Evil,.... please clarify jbrand's post.

    It says that is certain dosages that Nola up-regulates the estrogen receptors,.. is that correct.

    yes, that is correct, but if the receptors are occupied by nolva, estrogen wouldn't be able to bind and do its damage.

    clomid also has the ability to upregulate the ER.

  13. #13
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    but then do the receptors down regulate or go back to normal once the nolva or clomid is stopped. I read a study where they used nolva for six months on pubertal gyno and it reduced the gyno in many of the cases, but after six months it became less effective the longer they used it and eventually did nothing, is this most likely related to the up-regulation?

    I'm just not clear as to what down and up regulate really means and what affects it. I have the general idea, but what are the specifics if you don't mind.

  14. #14
    BodybuildingMD is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    4
    The receptors should down regulate once off the nolva. Therefore the way most people cycle this should not be an issue for BBers.

  15. #15
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    Originally posted by NightOp
    but then do the receptors down regulate or go back to normal once the nolva or clomid is stopped.
    i don't know. i can check on that.

  16. #16
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896

  17. #17
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    found nothing

  18. #18
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    well thnx for the effort anyway

  19. #19
    Animal Cracker's Avatar
    Animal Cracker is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Va Beach
    Posts
    3,658
    I hate estrogen conversion!

  20. #20
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    here's a thought. post cycle, total hormone levels are low so the body produces more hormones (including testosterone and estrogen) to compensate. when nolva and clomid blocks estrogen recetpors in the hypothalamus it sends a signal to your body that hormone levels are still low, so it produces more hormones (more estrogen). this cycle will stop when natural testosterone reaches a level that is satisfactory to your feedback sensors to stop producing any more hormones.

    this is only a post cycle scenario where nolva and clomid may actually increase estrogen levels, but that shouldn't matter too much if all the receptors are blocked and don't allow estrogen to bind.

  21. #21
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    isnt' that one of the reasons why liquidex/arimidex or femara post cycle along with clomid is a good idea.

  22. #22
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    Originally posted by NightOp
    isnt' that one of the reasons why liquidex/arimidex or femara post cycle along with clomid is a good idea.
    kind of, but not really. arimidex will take care of any aromatizing androgens that are still left over from the end of the cycle. during post cycle estrogen peaks, the body is actually making its own estrogen from scratch and not totally counting on aromatizing testosterone into estrogen.

  23. #23
    NightOp is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    896
    Originally posted by Dr.Evil


    kind of, but not really. arimidex will take care of any aromatizing androgens that are still left over from the end of the cycle. during post cycle estrogen peaks, the body is actually making its own estrogen from scratch and not totally counting on aromatizing testosterone into estrogen.
    wow... interesting, I was unaware of other methods of estrogen production besides aromatase. I've always been told that arimidex /liquidex post cycle works great to bringing back test production. So does the clomid alone (no nolva) effectively block whatever estrogen is being produced (despite any use of arimidex) (at the site naturally)? Just curious, thnx for the info.

  24. #24
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    Originally posted by NightOp


    So does the clomid alone (no nolva) effectively block whatever estrogen is being produced (despite any use of arimidex) (at the site naturally)? Just curious, thnx for the info.
    yes it should.

    but remember, endocrine recovery depends on a lot more than blocking estrogen. if the endocrine is shut down for a long time it will just require a long time to start back up. blocking estrogen at the hypothalamus just prevents this process from being delayed, but realize that this process is still going to take some time even with clomid

  25. #25
    Sicilian30's Avatar
    Sicilian30 is offline Respected Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    There is no place like ho
    Posts
    3,690
    Originally posted by Dr.Evil
    nolva will never decrease your estrogen levels. it just prevents estrogen receptors from binding to estrogen. if estrogen levels increase it shouldn't matter because the receptors would be occupied by nolva and estrogen wouldn't be able to bind.
    Zactly...

  26. #26
    Billmister's Avatar
    Billmister is offline Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    850
    wait i was going to take nolvadex only if i feel the symtoms of itchy tits. So nolva will hold it but not stop gyno(estrogens)? what do i take then?

  27. #27
    Dr.Evil's Avatar
    Dr.Evil is offline Retired Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Secret Volcano Lair
    Posts
    2,228
    just do as you planned bill. free floating estrogen shouldn't hurt you if all your receptors are blocked by nolva.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •