Thread: Survery: Who actually runs HCG ?
05-29-2005, 02:56 PM #1Associate Member
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Survery: Who actually runs HCG ?
Do u run HCG during or after cycle? or at all
05-29-2005, 03:03 PM #2
05-29-2005, 03:15 PM #3Associate Member
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05-29-2005, 03:35 PM #4
if i'm going more than 14wks, i'll start at wk 5 and run 500ius 2x wk thru whole cycle
05-29-2005, 03:36 PM #5Registered User
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- Central Florida
my HRT doc gave me 10,000 iu's for PCT along with clomid.
05-29-2005, 05:19 PM #6Associate Member
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what is a HRT doc?
05-29-2005, 05:24 PM #7Member
Originally Posted by BEAR101
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- Apr 2005
05-29-2005, 05:59 PM #8Originally Posted by ChefJ
05-29-2005, 07:07 PM #9
05-29-2005, 08:24 PM #10Originally Posted by niXon)(
05-29-2005, 10:04 PM #11
05-29-2005, 10:05 PM #12
05-29-2005, 10:15 PM #13
05-29-2005, 10:21 PM #14Originally Posted by taiboxa
05-29-2005, 10:22 PM #15Originally Posted by KINGKONG
even higher than test?
05-29-2005, 10:25 PM #16Originally Posted by taiboxa
05-29-2005, 11:21 PM #17
05-30-2005, 02:06 AM #18
every seventh week... how much a week?
05-30-2005, 02:18 AM #19Member
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- Jan 2005
I used it during cycle
05-30-2005, 06:33 AM #20Originally Posted by niXon)(
You read a couple posts somewhwere on the net and are now a f*cking expert in endocrinology.
I am dying to hear this. Please explain where this doctor went wrong. Actually, it is not just me that is waiting for you ellucidation, the entire hormone replacement industry is waiting for your words of wisdom.
Please enlighten us....
05-30-2005, 08:20 AM #21
hooker wrote something on using hcg during pct .. which only confuses me more (doesnt take much) so now i dont know what to do anymore...
and until i find out how to run a flawless uber super duper pct im going to just stay on for ever.
05-30-2005, 09:02 AM #22
05-30-2005, 12:45 PM #23
05-30-2005, 11:32 PM #24Originally Posted by niXon)(
Here is from the Steroid .com homepage--
" In a man HCG stimulates production of androgenic hormones (testosterone ). For this reason athletes use injectable HCG to increase the testosterone produc-tion. HCG is often used in combination with anabolic /androgenic steroids during or after treatment. Since the body usually needs a certain amount of time to get its testosterone production going again, the athlete, after discontinuing steroid compounds, experiences a difficult transition phase which often goes hand in hand with a considerable loss in both strength and muscle mass. Administering HCG directly after steroid treatment helps to reduce this condition because HCG increases the testosterone production in the testes very quickly and reliably."
Get these poor SOBs straightened out also.
Out of curiosity, where did you get your MD?
05-31-2005, 12:10 AM #25
While your at it, straighten these bro's out also.
REPRINTED (I am not the author)
PCT-My thoughts on Post cycle therapy ~ Phreezer
Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on HCG admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?
Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...
1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.
A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...
Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.
Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.
the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello Viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.
WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin )..
The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.
I've done Clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do Nolvadex ..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases IGF-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of Gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't **** with it!
HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.
Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)
150mg Clomid day (Only)
day 2-8 100mg ED
day 9-16 50mg ED -
day 17-24 50mg EOD...
HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.
Originally Posted by Hogg
You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.
This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.
So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.
While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.
The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.
So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.
So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell
05-31-2005, 08:17 AM #26
Hey internet tough guy, go ahead and run HCG during PCT like a dumbass, I could care less.
I was trying to help some people out and save them some time. And i don't feel i need to copy paste articles i've read or explaine myself to you. There's two sides to everything.
Why don't you post this at the "other board" you're a member at with this tough guy mantality and see if people aren't so nice over there?
05-31-2005, 08:40 AM #27Originally Posted by niXon)(
edit: i also forgot to say that i run 20mgED nolva and .5mgED adex with it prior to PCT since it can cause estrogen rises.
05-31-2005, 09:10 AM #28
05-31-2005, 09:40 AM #29Anabolic Member
Originally Posted by znak
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05-31-2005, 11:14 AM #30Originally Posted by buylongterm
Well shit, it would be interesting to see what your test levels are when you do come off How do you know you don't need HCG ? Its not like you can FEEL how shut down you are.
05-31-2005, 09:09 PM #31
06-01-2005, 01:06 AM #32Originally Posted by niXon)(
I personally have run hcg six times. You have never run it.
I have received it from a doctor, a trained medical expert, each time. You have never used it.
I have consulted with a medical professional face to face regarding using it during pct. You have not, you have half read a couple posts.
Highly repected bros (regardless of where they posted the information) completely disagree with your gibberish.
The HRT industry disagrees with you opinion.
I have asked you to back up your information. You got personal instead.
If you don't know something about a topic FIRST HAND read, don't post. No one needs half baked advice, with absolutely no basis.
Let's keep this board clean.
06-01-2005, 04:58 PM #33Originally Posted by znak
I'm done with this thread it's going no where, you obviously think you're an expert and smarter than other vets/mods, and believe everything doctors tell you, LoL.
06-01-2005, 05:00 PM #34Originally Posted by taiboxa
Running HCG up to PCT will have your nuts at their fullest potential to take you into PCT. Then you let Clomid do the work.
06-01-2005, 07:01 PM #35Originally Posted by znak
I use gear and HCG from an HRT doc and he says to use HCG ON cycle NOT off. I've also heard and read the same thing from other HRT docs. Because the, so called, "informed set" hold such divergent opinions on the subject, I'd be careful not to take such a dogmatic stance re HCG administration. To my mind, it makes more sense to do it on cycle. But that's just me. I could be wrong. But even if I am, my balls love me both on and off cycle.
06-01-2005, 07:56 PM #36
all i know is HCG F'n Rox if you use it every 7 weeks any more frequent use can cause some serious issues... and running it during pct can kinda f' up the effects of clomid STILL WORKS just not near as effective and IMO i want the most EFFECTIVE PIMP ASS PCT POSSIBLE!
07-28-2005, 02:40 AM #37New Member
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07-28-2005, 03:26 AM #38
07-28-2005, 04:30 AM #39Originally Posted by Josey Wales
Use it on cycle to keep your nuts from shrinking rather then using it when your nuts have already shrunken
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on.
By ''some dude''
Last edited by Joey2ness; 07-28-2005 at 04:34 AM.
07-28-2005, 04:50 AM #40
I run a little for the last 2-3 weeks of my cycles, just to kick start the boys before PCT.
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