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  1. #1
    Indymuscleguy's Avatar
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    Androgenics and Anabolics

    Group,

    With regard to Androgenics and Anabolics can we discuss a few questions?

    1. Do Androgenics increase sex drive more vs anabolics
    2. Do Androgenics aromatize less than anabolics
    3. Do Androgenics have fewer side effects than anabolics

    Would a cycle that consists of Androgenic gear be worth doing? Would one gain some size and have fewer sides than doing a cycle with anabolics

    Thanks!

    Indymuscleguy

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    All steroids have both an anabolic and androgenic component.

  3. #3
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    Hey Hooker,

    Thanks for the quick response. I guess to clairfy more ... the more androgenic the cycle the fewer the sides? The more anabolic , increased sides. So...which ones seem to kick up the libido? I have done Prop/ethanate/cyp...three different cycles...but when I added proviron ...which I believe is more androgenic, I had less sexual side effects. So...if one were to do a more androgenic cycle, what would it be and would I have a more positive/less sexual side effects?

    Indymuscleguy

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    which one cause acne?

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    Umm...no...generally the more androgenic , the more sides. Anabolic means muscle building, and androgenic means responsible for the development of male sex organs and secondary sexual characteristics.

  6. #6
    Indymuscleguy's Avatar
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    Hooker,

    Thanks for clearing that up! I know it sounded sorta dumb, but isn't that why we are here...to learn...

    Again, thanks!

    Indymuscleguy

  7. #7
    Unoid is offline Member
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    Androgenics I think also make you lose hair faster, deepening of voice. Could be wrong though.

  8. #8
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Okay, let me clarify something. If androgenic affects were ONLY bad then we would stick to things with these huge lopsided ratios, like Winny, Deca , or Var, which is HIGHLY anabolic in comparison to the androgenic value... but a var only cycle isn't as muscle building as a lot of compounds with a higher androgenic value. I think part of the reason for this is as follows, but please god dammit, since I've been on this board I've been begging for a discussion that lists all the benefits or actions that androgenics have. So far, some of the things I can figure are this;

    Androgenics cause:
    1. Aggression (good for workouts)
    2. Status Drive (Good for sticking to the plan for success, BB in this case)
    3. Well being (no androgens can = depression, which can mean less gym effort, or none at all.)
    4. Fat burning

    and of course all the negative things associated with androgenics, too...

    But if it were just the ratios, then EQ cycles SHOULD have the ability to create as much muscle as Test, assuming that the androgen value provided nothing to the accumulation of muscle.

    Anyone see what I'm getting at? I'd like an explanation too.

  9. #9
    Rider's Avatar
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    I wish scientists made a totally 100% anabolic substance with zero androgenic effects...but nothing yet.

  10. #10
    j martini is offline Member
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    Anabolic steroids are less effective usualy than androgenic steroids because they have being altered to reduce androgen effects. Deca (19-nortestosterone) for example has the 19 carbon removed thus causing less androgenic effects. Especially aromatization to estrogen. However this also makes the drug less effective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j martini
    Anabolic steroids are less effective usualy than androgenic steroids because they have being altered to reduce androgen effects. Deca(19-nortestosterone) for example has the 19 carbon removed thus causing less androgenic effects. Especially aromatization to estrogen. However this also makes the drug less effective.
    I don't understand what you're saying.

  12. #12
    j martini is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    I don't understand what you're saying.
    I was just saying, in a round about way, that anabolics usually dont aromatize to estrogen to the same degree that some androgens like test do.

    I used deca as an example, as deca has the 19 carbon atom removed, and as most and as testosterone follows a an 8 step pathway to aromatization and most takes place at the 19- carbon when it is romoved as in deca there is less aromatization to estrogen.

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    Androgens are Anabolics are Androgens are Anabolics. We just call them AAS (anabolic /androgenic steroids ) for that reason.

    Ok...yes...deca has the 19th carbon removed. I don't follow much else you're saying. Deca is less androgenic than test and more anabolic. Which means it produces less male secondary characteristics and also produces more muscle growth.

  14. #14
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    So basically, a really good muscle building cycle would be Anavar , Deca and Winny. Anyone know why that WOULDN'T build a lot of muscle? This obviously isn't my proposed cycle, anyone who's read any of my posts know's next is going to be

    Dbol +NPP+Test+Tren

    But for the sake of understanding this... lets take an extreme case, like the one I mentioned of Var+Winny+Npp... Why wouldn't that be a good cycle?

  15. #15
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    no test.

  16. #16
    ODC0717 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumanHW
    So basically, a really good muscle building cycle would be Anavar , Deca and Winny. Anyone know why that WOULDN'T build a lot of muscle? This obviously isn't my proposed cycle, anyone who's read any of my posts know's next is going to be

    Dbol +NPP+Test+Tren

    But for the sake of understanding this... lets take an extreme case, like the one I mentioned of Var+Winny+Npp... Why wouldn't that be a good cycle?
    There's no test. You will have no sex drive. Well, maybe that's incorrect. I think that the sex drive will be severley effected by your imaginary cycle especially with the NPP. I've never done a cycle without test as I love to have a lot of sex while I'm on cycle and off for that matter. One thing I've always noticed is an increase in energy while on test. Not just energy, I'm almost like figgidy, like I've always gotta be moving or doing something or someone. I'm in a better mood, and believe it or not I'm not very aggressive, and I'm relativley aggressive by nature. Like I said before, I've never done a cycle without test and I refuse to. In my mind, though, it just dosen't make much sense to take a steroid that will shut down your test production and sex drive while not taking the steroid that will counter all of those sides. JMO, correct me if I'm worng.

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    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Jigga! OTC!!! Don't you guys READ my WHOLE post?

    My point is to focus on the GAINING potential of a cycle. People say you don't make good gains on a cycle of Nandrolone , Var or Winny. People do not refer to these drugs as BULKING drugs. Why? As I said not 1 inch from where I posted my next cycle, which has two very androgenic compounds... this is for the sake of testing the limits of beliefs. You see, if a rule doesn't work at the extreme, it's not a good rule. Test that out for a while, you'll see what I mean.

    Anyway, THE point. Why is it, that HIGHLY anabolic (anabolism = muscle building, right) drugs rarely are listed as BULKING drugs???

    I have and plan to use Test in every cycle. I want to know WHY aside from the sex drive and well being elements WHICH I POINTED OUT three posts earlier! Duh!

  18. #18
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Jigga! OTC!!! Don't you guys READ my WHOLE post?

    My point is to focus on the GAINING potential of a cycle. People say you don't make good gains on a cycle of Nandrolone , Var or Winny. People do not refer to these drugs as BULKING drugs. Why? As I said not 1 inch from where I posted my next cycle, which has two very androgenic compounds... this is for the sake of testing the limits of beliefs. You see, if a rule doesn't work at the extreme, it's not a good rule. Test that out for a while, you'll see what I mean.

    Anyway, THE point. Why is it, that HIGHLY anabolic (anabolism = muscle building, right) drugs rarely are listed as BULKING drugs???

    I have and plan to use Test in every cycle. I want to know WHY aside from the sex drive and well being elements WHICH I POINTED OUT three posts earlier! Duh!

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    Lets sharpen these questions up. Anyone who has a question on this topic, just post the question.

    As it stands...there's just alot of stuff going on in this thread and I don't want to wade through it.

  20. #20
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    We're here to build muscle, correct? I mean, I want a NORMAL sex drive, and a NORMAL psyche, and a great physical condition for anabolism. So, why not JUST highly anabolic compounds and the MINIMUM androgenic component to maintain normal sexual and psychological function. Wouldn't THAT be the best cycle if I understand the conditions and provisions of anabolism and androgenics?

  21. #21
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    High anabolic /low androgen = lethargic, less driven, less aggresive at the gym, messes with appetite, but builds muscle good. its good to have a balance of both effects of A-A IMO... get big, hard, and feel euphoric the whole time... wooohooo!! I also aim to minimalize the estrogen factor, so next ill use Prop/Tren /Var (600wk/500wk/50ED) with PCT/clen ... all low likely to convert to estrogen... if ya care....

  22. #22
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    Dont go thinking only adrogenic gives side effects... Tren is barely androgenic , its very very anabolic though, and it gives A LOT of sides especially hairloss.

    And the test-for-sex-drive thing is a wild legend. I find it very false, but its just my opinion. The reason is that yes our body needs test, but the test our body needs is OUR test... The steroid fake test you put in your body is as little related to real test as something EQ or Tren would be. (This is only my opinion). Its why I feel COMPLETELY lethargic of 580mg test a week. Because its not my test.

    As for Deca Dick, I believe its all placebo effect and all in a person's head. People know about Deca Dick, so they go on Deca and start thinking about it, and they cause it. When in reality it probably originated from some guy who lost libido when he started Deca and coincedently was going through a lot of depression or something.

    And for those that say "build a lot of muscle but only with anabolics and minimize the androgenic and estrogen part". Its not possible. A substance thats anabolic only means it produces no estrogen, or very little. This is a main component of building and this is why anabolic compounds like anavar , tbol, eq, and winny don't create mass gains. They are anabolic with very little androgenic parts and very little estrogen conversion.

    To me theres 2 parts to muscle building. The muscle building component and the estrogen. Test is a muscle building component and the estrogen it converts to will cause mass gains. Eq, however, is a muscle building component but theres no estrogen to convert to. You're missing half the puzzle. Even something AMAZING like Tren won't create good gains if used alone beacuse it does not convert to estrogen. Now, tren and test is sick its so great. But again, thats because you have the muscle building component and the estrogen.

    And for the guy above me who said he wants to minimize estro so hes going to use Prop/tren/var you wont be minimizing estro at all. Prop is a test and it will fully convert to estro like any other test. Remember, test is the king of estrogen converters. All other steroids are weighed against it in fact. The only way to help control estro is with anti-es, but even that won't have a great effect on 500mg of test. Youll still be full of estro.

    On the flip side, this is a good thing. Youll build muscle.

    So dont minimize the estrogen unless your cutting or something!!
    Last edited by chris2wire; 07-07-2005 at 01:48 AM.

  23. #23
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    what what what??? im gonna have to ask others opinions on this... tren not androgenic ? this is the opposite that i have read and been told.... to be full of estro will help you put on muscle, or water?? i dont really want water... and prop? the easiest ester to control your levels therefore keep water down with a little nolva.... of course you will get some estro convervsion, i said minimize... var and tren, low to no conversion... tell ya what, im just starting the tren/prop/var cycle as soon as my var comes, and ill keep ya posted.... ive had enough of high estrogen levels (dbol ) and plumpy watermelon head... just want lean muscle mass and hard look... test can make people both energetic or lethargic, ive seen both... tren energizes me personally... anyone want to add to this?? here is the tren link from AR :

    http://www.steroid.com/FINAPLIX.phtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumanHW
    We're here to build muscle, correct? I mean, I want a NORMAL sex drive, and a NORMAL psyche, and a great physical condition for anabolism. So, why not JUST highly anabolic compounds and the MINIMUM androgenic component to maintain normal sexual and psychological function. Wouldn't THAT be the best cycle if I understand the conditions and provisions of anabolism and androgenics?
    No it wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chris2wire
    Dont go thinking only adrogenic gives side effects... Tren is barely androgenic , its very very anabolic though, and it gives A LOT of sides especially hairloss.
    !!
    Tren has the same anabolic rating as androgenic rating (500).

  26. #26
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Chris, it tortured me to complete reading your misconceptions. I'm glad someone beat me to identifying a few, but he left out quite a few.

  27. #27
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Hook, if you're too busy to explain your thoughts on this subject (which is the reason I'm typing my response) than without offending you... save the 3 word reply, I'm not enlightened. I'm trying to find out why if anabolic means muscle building and androgenic doesn't ... why the androgenic component is so sought after and is always recommended at a HIGH value...

    My next cycle will include tren and Test... But still, my question is UNANSWERED, and DEFINITELY not explained.

  28. #28
    Jsik98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indymuscleguy
    Group,

    With regard to Androgenics and Anabolics can we discuss a few questions?

    1. Do Androgenics increase sex drive more vs anabolics
    2. Do Androgenics aromatize less than anabolics
    3. Do Androgenics have fewer side effects than anabolics

    Would a cycle that consists of Androgenic gear be worth doing? Would one gain some size and have fewer sides than doing a cycle with anabolics

    Thanks!

    Indymuscleguy
    You're kidding right?
    If not, Yes, No, No

  29. #29
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    I agree with the "Yes, No, No," response... but that is not the question thats difficult to answer. Someone, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS COMPREHENSIVELY! :-)

  30. #30
    cyclist2173 is offline Associate Member
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    If only Androgens increase sex drive, then how do you explain the increased sex drive from Turanabol?

  31. #31
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Uh, this question really is of value to this board. If no one here knows, just say so. If you're a mod and don't know, say it. If NONE of you know, maybe this is a valid issue for research... perhaps some budgeting for Hooker even... SOMETHING!

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    I supposek, what I'll need first is your working definition of "androgen" and "anabolic " since, in this thread, we've chosen to classify certain Steroids as "androgens" and others as "anabolics" then I think we need to define what makes each fall into this particular category, in light of the fact that every steroid has an anabolic and androgenic component.

  33. #33
    cyclist2173 is offline Associate Member
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    This question is of value to the board. Why? Because, someone could read this thread, get the idea that Turanabol will cause a loss of libido, since it has an androgeninc value at or near zero. Thereby, the person who is contemplating using Turanabol may think it is absolutely nescessary to stack with Test, while we know this is not the case.

    From every Turanabol user I have read, they say Turanabol increased their sex drive. The opposite of Var.

    Of course, I welcome explanations from a moderator as to why Turanabol increases sex drive, while being nearly non-androgenic . I certainly do not understand why.

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    Turinabol has a very strong affinity to binding to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), which is a substance in your body that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for our purposes.

    Turinabol binds to SHBG, thereby preventing testosterone from binding to it, hence making more testosterone in your body "free" and thus increasing libido.

  35. #35
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Cyclist, THANK YOU! THAT was the profile I couldn't find, and that is why I was searching for Hookers Profiles ... BECAUSE TBol has that bizarre androgenic rating.

    Anyway, WHAT is the good of including the ratios of AAS gear if it's all counterintuitive and if the properties of androgenics aren't just what we mentioned above.

    Hooker, on a side note, since I can't PM you, I have to give you credit, man. I was reading one of your threads on BB4L last night... and I quote;

    "If you are talking about other "authors" and their representation of this idea, namely Huck Finn, and his atrocious article "Stacking opposing classes...." that's probably why you previously thought thought this idea was heresay. He claims there are 2-3 "classes" of steroids (a fantasy), and it gets worse from there.

    I read that article a few years ago (along with some other stuff he wrote) and I'm actually still dumber today for having read it. Avoid him and his "work" at all costs."

    ___________________ END QUOTE

    The part where you said, "still dumber today" had me in fu(king TEARS!

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    Well...I suppose you could classify an "Androgenic " steroid as one which has a higher androgenic rating than anabolic rating. That would make test (of course) neither, as well as tren , since they have the same respective score for their androgenic component as their anabolic component.

  37. #37
    Two4the$$ is offline Senior Member
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    Okay, when a steroid like Tren has a 500:500 ratio, that's 1:1, why not state it that way? Unless of course it actually means it's 5 times as strong mg per mg as Test.

    Why do these ratios have little bearing CONSISTENTLY speaking to their strength? Where do these numbers (I forget which one it is, but one of them is 1900 for one of the A components) come from??? I know, it's when compared to Test... but HOW do they compare it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrumanHW
    Okay, when a steroid like Tren has a 500:500 ratio, that's 1:1, why not state it that way? Unless of course it actually means it's 5 times as strong mg per mg as Test.

    Thats exactly what it means, actually. It's 5x as anabolic and androgenic as testosterone , mg for mg.
    Why do these ratios have little bearing CONSISTENTLY speaking to their strength? Where do these numbers (I forget which one it is, but one of them is 1900 for one of the A components) come from??? I know, it's when compared to Test... but HOW do they compare it?
    You're thinking of Halotestin , with the 1900 anabolic rating.

    Here's why the anabolic:androgenic ratio may not be as useful as you would want them to be:

    To determine that ratio, testosterone was given to male winstar mice, and then they were sacrificed (killed), and their levator ani (a leg muscle which was immobilized during the 21 days) is weighed, as well as their ventral prostate.

    The weight of that (untrained) muscle is the anabolic rating for testosterone , and the weight of the ventral prostate is the androgenic rating. Now other steroids are administered to these rodents, and the weight of their levator ani and ventral prostate, relative to the weights of those rodents from the testosterone group, are that steroid 's anabolic:androgenic rating.

    The levator ani muscle, in mice given halotestin, was 19x bigger at the end of the 21 days it was administered for, as the levator ani in those rodents given testosterone.

  39. #39
    cyclist2173 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    Turinabol has a very strong affinity to binding to Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), which is a substance in your body that binds to testosterone and renders it useless for our purposes.

    Turinabol binds to SHBG, thereby preventing testosterone from binding to it, hence making more testosterone in your body "free" and thus increasing libido.
    I get it....but if you are on-cycle for awhile and your natty test thereby becomes low, then would it still have a increased libido versus lets say....someone off-cycle?

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    Your question is too vague, and unanswerable as it stands. "On a cycle" is undefined. If you are doing tons of Tren and deca , then you probably won't experience much of a libido increase with OT, but if you are doing test, then you proably will.

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