Thread: Friends cycle review
08-03-2005, 05:04 PM #1
Friends cycle review
First this is a proposed for a big big friend of mine. When I mean big I mean 6'6 305 shotputter looking for pro status. He is drug tested from the end of Nov-May once a month so 1 cycle is best.
testprop 225mg ed for 10weeks weeks
Igf-1 LR3 100mcg's ed for the first 4weeks then 9-12weeks.
Drol 150mg for first 5weeks.
20mg of nolva ed with .5mg of armidex. Should be enough. But we are unsure what on what is the best PCT. He was thinking clomid with nolva and trib, to you think he should use hcg since he is useing almost 1.6grams of test.
08-03-2005, 05:12 PM #2
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the dose on the drol is to high. i would run it no more then 100mg ed for 4 weeks. the test prop also i think is to high. it should be run at no more then 150mg ed the igf looks ok to me.
you have to keep in mind even know he is a big guy you dont need that much more. if his body makes 10mg day of test that is 70mg week. so if you shoot 1000mg a week that is a lot. same thing gose for the drol you liver can handle only so much. it does not matter how big you are.
08-03-2005, 05:32 PM #3Originally Posted by gsxxr
08-03-2005, 06:11 PM #4
08-03-2005, 06:41 PM #5
bump this is important.
08-03-2005, 06:57 PM #6
The cycle looks "ok" to me
Fvcking high dosages!! But they're all good relative to one another
I'd suggest HCG mid cycle
It's a short cycle, but at those dosages it's better to be safe
I think Clomid, Nolvadex and Tribulus will do fine for PCT bro
It'll just be a slightly longer PCT than most that's all
Once again - Fvcking high dosages, but they're all good relative to one another
He shouldn't have a problem if his past cycles were of similar dosages
**I'd recommend a long rest period before his next cycle so that his body can rest and recover from what he is about to do to it**
I also feel his next cycle should be of a more mild nature
You can't go all out every time, maybe run a Prop only cycle at 0.8-1 gram for 8-10 weeks
08-04-2005, 03:33 PM #7
08-04-2005, 03:37 PM #8
08-04-2005, 05:56 PM #9
08-04-2005, 06:59 PM #10
I've been doing alot of research on HCG recently
There doesn't seem to be anything concrete on dosages
Last 2 weeks before PCT seems good to me
However, as i said, there seems to be a big debate over dosages
The most common advice seems to range from 500iu's to 1,000iu's per week whilst on cycle
I have read that a dose of 1,500iu's will increase natural test levels by up to 300%
(didn't specify if it was in a single injection or not)
I think 100iu's-150iu's ED would be a better dose for your friend
Maybe someone else can comment on dosages?
08-04-2005, 08:11 PM #11
Can more people please reply.
08-04-2005, 08:23 PM #12
Originally posted by BIGNATT
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone . Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
Post-Cycle LH Levels
Post Cycle Testosterone Levels
Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.
The Role of Anti-estrogens
It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.
So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.
Finalizing the Program
An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 300-500IU weekly.This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.
Sample Post-cycle Plan:
last week of cycle: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 2: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 3: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.
08-04-2005, 08:25 PM #13
Originally posted by LUVMUHROIDS
This is an article I resort to often in advicing on HCG usage. I have read many studies on this product and its abilities. I would like to note that HCG is not to be mistaken for a suppliment to clomid or nolavdex for PCT. HCG tricks the testes into reproduction by mimicing LH. It does not restore the HPTA to a proper recovery. This is only accomplished by clomid/nolvadex therapy. HCG can not be used together in conjuction with clomid for one inhibits the other. I have read users administering HCG right after a cycle for a quick restore then start clomid therapy right after. It should only be used to cure symptoms of "testicular atrophy".
Nick and Bigfella - MuscleTalk.co.uk moderators
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid , but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia .
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.
Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.
Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsules. 10 x 50mg tablets should be anywhere from £10-20; $10 - $20.00. HCG prices range from £15-£25 per 3 ampoules.
note below first bold sentence where the article discusses amounts administered. I have read many times users administering larger dosages thinking of a quicker or better recovery not considering the side effects this may cause.
HCG is provided as a glycoprotein powder to be diluted with water, and acts in the body like LH, stimulating the testes to produce testosterone even when natural LH is not present or is deficient. It therefore is useful for maintaining testosterone production and/or testicle size during a steroid cycle. Use of this drug in the taper is rather counterproductive, since the resulting increased testosterone production is itself inhibitory to the hypothalamus and pituitary, delaying recovery. Thus, if this drug is used, it is preferably used during the cycle itself. A daily amount of 500 IU is generally sufficient, and in my opinion usage should not exceed 1000 IU per day.
Daily administration is superior to less frequent administration.
Doses over 1000 IU are noted for their tendency to cause or aggravate gynecomastia, and also act to desensitize the testicles to LH.
HCG may be injected intramuscularly, subcutaneously, or in a shallow injection about 1/4" deep with the needle going straight in. A 29 gauge insulin needle is recommended. Injection speed should be slow.
Some HCG products are diluted 5000 or even 10,000 IU per mL, while others are diluted 1000 IU per mL. So far as I know there is no need to make the preparation so dilute. Once mixed, the preparation should be refrigerated and used within a few weeks. The substance is also somewhat temperature sensitive before mixing and should not be exposed to excessive heat.
HCG does not correct the problem of progressively-decreasing ejaculatory volume that is typical during a steroid cycle. So far as I know the only cure is to go off-cycle and use Clomid, but it is possible that HMG, a related drug which works analogously to FSH might be useful during a cycle to treat this problem. HMG supports spermatogenesis and is commonly used in conjunction with HCG to treat male fertility problems. (Consider use of HMG to maintain ejaculatory volume to be a strictly past-the-cutting-edge hypothesis: I have not yet had the opportunity to test the matter.)
The athlete who would otherwise fail a urinary ratio test because of low epitestosterone may find HCG useful in increasing epitestosterone and therefore improving this ratio. A 500 IU dose is sufficient, but on the other hand, HCG itself is also banned by the IOC and is readily detected in urine.
HCG can also useful for returning testosterone to normal levels should levels be low post-cycle, or, with care, to increase levels from normal to high normal. Titration of the dose, by measuring T levels and then adjusting the HCG dose accordingly, is recommended for long term use.
08-04-2005, 08:50 PM #14Originally Posted by gsxxr
here is the link if you wanna have a read...http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...holone+profile
08-05-2005, 03:15 PM #15
I have told my friend his name is john about lowering the drol dose. He said instead of drol he is going to use 50mg of dbol eachday still for 5weeks. And For the hcg last week of the cycle he is going to use 250iu's eod. Does that sound good to go for his cycle. He is hoping to get to 320 and be around 14% bf.
08-05-2005, 05:33 PM #16
08-05-2005, 07:09 PM #17
bump and thanks for all the info ant 8u.
08-06-2005, 07:17 PM #18
08-16-2005, 10:10 AM #19Originally Posted by ant_8u
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