Thread: First cycle sus250/dbol
08-05-2005, 07:26 PM #1New Member
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First cycle sus250/dbol
Hey guys I've been reading this board for a couple of months now and im trying to get a cycle started, but the more I read the more confused I get.
I have 20ml of sust and enought dbol to last 8 weeks I know I dont need that much dbol but I have it. If you guys can maybe suggest a 8 to 12 week cycle it would help out alot.
By the way im a 35 year old guy I weight 195 and im about 5'11" i've been working out for most my life but just would like to get alot of size and need a kick start. Also should i be overly concerned about gyno with this cycle (with the dbol and all). I just need a little help cause the guy that I work out with does 500mg a week Sust and has been taking 25mg of dbol a day for 8 weeks. I look on the board and no one is taking dbol for that long. So if anyone could help me out id appreciate it. And maybe a pct to
08-05-2005, 07:31 PM #2
08-05-2005, 07:32 PM #3
My bad. you have enough test. Do 500mg per week into 2 shots for a 10 week cycle.
08-05-2005, 07:37 PM #4New Member
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How much nolva should i do and how often. And I am thinking that the clomid is for the gyno?
08-06-2005, 12:13 AM #5
Why Bodybuilders Use Clomid
Clomid is a generic name for Clomiphene Citrate and is a synthetic estrogen. It is prescribed medically to aid ovulation in low fertility females. Another generic name is Serophene.
Most anabolic steroids , especially the androgens, cause inhibition of the body's own testosterone production. When a bodybuilder comes off a steroid cycle, natural testosterone production is zero and the levels of the steroids taken in the blood are diminishing. This leaves the ratios of catabolic : anabolic hormones in the blood high, hence the body is in a state of catabolism, and, as a result, much of the muscle tissue that was gained on the cycle is now going to be lost.
Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to, in turn stimulant the anterior pituitary gland (aka hypophysis) to release gonadotrophic hormones. The gonadotrophic hormones are follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH - aka interstitial cell stimulating hormone (ICSH)). FSH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, and LH stimulates them to secrete more testosterone. This feedback mechanism is known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-testes axis (HPTA), and results in an increase of the body's own testosterone production and blood levels rise, to, in part, compensate for the diminishing levels of exogenous steroids. This is vital to minimise post cycle muscle losses.
Not all steroids do cause shut down of the feedback mechanism. Everyone is different and you must also take into account how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose in order to determine if you need Clomid or not.
Clomid also works as an anti-oestrogen. As it's a weak synthetic oestrogen, it binds to oestrogen receptors on cells blocking them to oestrogen in the blood. This minimises the negative effects like gynecomastia and water retention that may be a result of oestrogen that has aromatised from testosterone.
It's effect as an anti-oestrogen are quite weak though, and it should not be relied upon if you are going to be using androgenic steroids that aromatise at a rapid rate, or if you are pre-disposed to gynecomastia. Arimidex and Nolvadex (Tamoxifen ) are far more effective anti-oestrogens.
Important note: Clomid does not, as is often thought, stimulate the release of natural testosterone, but rather works at reducing the oestrogenic inhibition caused by the steroid cycle. It does this in a similar manner to the way it and Nolvadex block oestrogen receptors in nipples to combat gyno development, i.e. by blocking the oestrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary thus reducing the inhibition from the elevated oestrogen. This allows LH levels to return to normal, or even above normal levels, and in turn, natural testosterone levels to also normalise.
Inhibition of the HPTA is caused by either elevated androgen, oestrogen or progesterone levels. On cessation of the steroid cycle, androgen levels begin to fall and Clomid dosing is normally commenced according to the half-life of the longest acting drug in the system (see below).
This may also explain the reason individuals often find post-deca recovery more difficult, as the progesterone presence is untouched by the Clomid. We know that Clomid and Nolvadex (being very similar chemically) are both ineffective with regard to reducing progesterone related gyno, so it is reasonable to assume that Clomid has little effect against progesterone levels.
Clomid During A Cycle
When we use anabolic steroids , the level of androgens in the body rises causing the androgen receptors to become more highly activated, and through the HPTA, a signal tells our testes to stop producing testosterone. During a cycle the body has far higher than normal levels of androgens and, as long as this level is high enough, Clomid will not help to keep natural testosterone production up. It will be almost all but completely shut off, in theory.
Some heavy androgen users, however, do advocate a small burst of Clomid mid-cycle, though it must be hard for them to say if it really of any benefit, due to the amount of gear they are using. Therefore, the only purpose of Clomid during a cycle is as an anti-estrogen.
When To Start Clomid
The correct time to commence Clomid depends on the type and cycle of steroids you have been using. Different steroids have different half-lifes (indicates the time a substance diminishes in blood), and Clomid administration should be taken accordingly.
As we have seen above, Clomid taken when androgen levels in our blood are still high will be a waste. It is crucial to wait for androgen levels to fall before implementing our Clomid therapy. However, if taken too late we could possibly lose gains.
The list below determines when you should start Clomid. Select from the list any steroids you've used in your cycle and whichever one has the latest starting point is the time to commence Clomid. For example, if Dianabol , Sustanon and Winstrol were cycled, the time for administering Clomid should be 3 weeks post cycle, as Sustanon remains active in the body for the longest period of time.
Steroid Time after
last administration Length of
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise : 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone : 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate : 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate /Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate : 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension : 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks
How To Take Clomid
Clomid has a long half-life (possibly 5 days), so there is no need to split up doses throughout the day. If Sustanon has been used and Clomid is commenced 3 weeks after the last injection, I would estimate that androgen levels are low enough to start sending the correct signals. If androgen levels are still a little high, we need to start at a high enough amount that will work or help, even if androgen levels are still a little high. Try 300mg on day 1; then use 100mg for the next 10 days; followed by 50mg for 10 days.
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).
Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.
HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.
The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.
From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:
1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.
Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.
Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat
08-06-2005, 12:16 AM #6
"PCT and Cycle Reccomendations: Anti-Estrogens, Anti-Progestins, Aromatase Inhibitors(AI's), SERMs, and Anti-Cortisol meds..."
Original Post By:
Ok here goes...
I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. I'd like to thank Hooker for his input on this thread. A few defenitions before you start :
SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) : These block estrogen receptors, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. You may still bloat a little, but gyno is slowed or stopped. A few of the compounds discussed are SERMs
AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors) : These disable the aromatase enzyme, lowering estrogen in the blood. I use these if i bloat too much, and in PCT for sure. I like Arimidex the best. A few of the compounds discussed are AIs.
Estrogen : The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno also. We either block its receptors or reduce its production when it becomes a problem. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT.
Progesterone : Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its rececptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca , may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.
Cortisol : The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes.
Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :
Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) : Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. The more i read about nolva, the more it sounds like a miracle drug for us. It outperforms clomid in its ability to raise natural test levels in PCT, does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. It also helps your blood fat levels. In my opinion, Nolva should be used during a cycle (average 10mg ED) with your HCG, they work wonders together. This will greatly speed recovery of natural test levels. It is also very effective in PCT (average 20mg ED) to block the bad hormone spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno. Again, MAY become more sensetive, the jury is out on that too.
Falsodex(Fulvestrant) : Falsodex is also a SERM, something like Nolva, but does not upregulate the progesterone receptor. Not much is known for our purposes, but it is an injectable, once a month at 250mg. It may be that it can help with both estrogen and progesterone receptors... heres what hooker said :
Clomid(Clomiphene Citrate) : This drug is also a SERM, is almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be much quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are a good choice in PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it would be prudent to include this in your PCT.
Anastrozole(Arimidex or L-Dex), Letro(Femera) : These both do basically the same thing when it comes to our purposes. They are AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors). This means that they bind to the aromatase enzyme effectively shutting it down, lowering the production of estrogen, therefore lowering estrogen in the blood. They have different strengths, letro being the stronger, but can lower estrogen so much that your blood lipids get all messed up. When AAS doses get high, and Nolva alone is not enough to curb side effects, one may add an aromatase inhibitor, like L-Dex (same a Arimidex, but liquid). At .25mg ED for example, L-Dex does a good job limiting the production of estrogen. It is the most popular. It works well, doesnt totally eliminate estrogen (BAD) and doesnt mess with your blood lipids as bad as letro. It controls bloat very well. It is more necessary to use during PCT, as estro levels spike, and blood levels need to be lowered until natural testosterone levels are brought back.
Teslac (Testolactone) : This was originally thought to be an AI, but, a closer look from Hooker reveals it is actually an anabolic steroid !! It has many interesting properties in raising LH, FSH, and not being suppressive. Check out Hookers profile on this stuff, it is not widely used, and is expensive, but very interesting!!
Aromasin (Exemestane) : This is an anti-e but works differently. It does not stop the body from producing estrogen. Rather, it makes it so the estrogen is unable to bind to receptors by deactivating the binding enzyme. If the estrogen cannot bind, you simply will not get bloated or get gyno. The estrogen is crippled due to exemestane. However, since the estrogen is still floating around, it will not negatively affect your lipid/cholesterol profile.
HCG(Human Chorionic Gonadotropin ) : HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone . LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D (like i use it), or in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, 1000iu EOD. This is done before PCT starts with Clomid, as it is no good to mix the two. Always include Nolva with your HCH, they work together well.
Vitamin E : As Hooker pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the resonse to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective in growing back shrunken testicles.
RU-486(Mifepristone - abortion pill) : This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
RU-486 - Mifepristone (abortion pill)
Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking.
Dostinex(Cabergoline), Bromo(Bromocriptine), B-6 : These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progesterone itself hasnt been proven to cause gyno.
Clen (Clenbuterol ) : Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right, and keep workouts under an hour, high intesity. While cortisol is necessary to your body's function, if elevated to long it will eat your muscle. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a major part of the "crash" that is too often ignored. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.
Relacore : This is used to lower cortisol levels. It seems to be a more natural remedy. Lean Xtreme is one brand. At the end of a cycle, when your cortisol spikes, you can use this with your PCT. There is not enough talk about cortisol control, so i decided to add it to this thread, as PCT is about keeping gains, and cortisol IS your enemy, along with the test drop and estrogen spike. There are many other remedies to this, check out my cortisol thread :
Cortisol : What it is, how AAS influences it and how to control it
Mirtazapine :This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zimbie. Here is a pubmed abstract for is effects on cortisol levels, amoung other things.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract
Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine) : This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Here is a link to product information. http://www.nicemuscle.com/cytodyne-82088.htm
Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol.
Even at low doses, all AAS, even Anavar , can mess with your endocrine system, suppressing the HPTA (thus lowering LH). It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down, grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, and keep gains we worked hard for. In my opinion, most of us can get away with HCG and Nolva while on cycle. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require an AI such as L-dex, or maybe something to help deca/tren related gyno. As for PCT, it is up to you. You can use Nolva and Ldex, or add clomid to that. There is so much debate on this. I personally use HCG to maintain testicle size while on cycle. I use Nolva if nipples get itchy/sore while cycling, maybe a little L-Dex if i bloat. My PCT (after Prop 100mg ED Tren 75mg ED Var 50mg ED - 10 weeks) will include Nolva to block estrogen, L-Dex to fight the estrogen spike, along with Clenbuterol at for its fat burning and anti-catabolic properties. I may or may not use clomid. To much debate on this just yet. I will do this until my natural test comes back to a normal. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to get LH and FSH back into production to help achieve equilibrium of the HPTA. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... good luck!!
08-06-2005, 08:07 AM #7
Ver very good read!
Only one question here - when using Nolva while on cycle wouldn`t be negative to use Nolva again in PCT and therefore replece Nolva with Clomid while on PCT.
08-06-2005, 08:13 AM #8
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what you can do is run a 10 week cycle. most test cycle are 12 14 weeks long but with sust you can run it a little shorter. this is how i would rin it.
1-5 d-bol 50mg day.
1-10 sust 500mg week.
1-10 nolv 10mg
10-pct nolv 40mg
i would shoot the sust eod so you can get the full effect of the test prop. i feel this to be inportent in a 10 week sust cycle.
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