Some Confusion i'm having with Test and EQ?

[AG5678]

I have been a member on AR for almost a year and still haven't done a cycle. Even though its felt longer i am glad i waited and researched it all out. I am 175lb with 12% b/f and 5'10. I started out 141lb with 8.96 b/f 10 months ago
(I know what FOOD can DO!!). If everything goes well i am going to do a show in 3-4 months. The cycle that i have come up with is

Test 500mg wk 1-12
EQ 400mg wk1-12
Nolva
PCT

My goal is to just bulk and lean. I was going to do Deca but after reading the thread that hooker wrote i like what EQ has to offer. I really don't want to go overboard with the drugs. The 2 questions i have and am confused about are

1. I have read that increasing the amount of EQ (600mg week) ends up getting more quality gains? Is is worth spending more on EQ and Test and doing Test 700mg wk and EQ 600 or Test 600mg wk and EQ 500mg wk?

2. Finally, some people have been saying EQ starts to really kick in around wk 12? Is it worth extending my cycle longer? And if so how long?

I would really appreciate any help. Again thanks for all the knowledge i got from everyone.

[thejuiceisloose]

first you can run your Test 1 week more and your EQ stays the same.
Eq starts kicking in about week 8, dont know by personal experience just what other bros have said on here. I personally am running thhe same exact cycle as you have posted. Will start on Mon of next week.

[Ntpadude]

I have been a member on AR for almost a year and still haven't done a cycle. Even though its felt longer i am glad i waited and researched it all out. I am 175lb with 12% b/f and 5'10. I started out 141lb with 8.96 b/f 10 months ago
(I know what FOOD can DO!!). If everything goes well i am going to do a show in 3-4 months. The cycle that i have come up with is

Test 500mg wk 1-12
EQ 400mg wk1-12
Nolva
PCT

My goal is to just bulk and lean. I was going to do Deca but after reading the thread that hooker wrote i like what EQ has to offer. I really don't want to go overboard with the drugs. The 2 questions i have and am confused about are

1. I have read that increasing the amount of EQ (600mg week) ends up getting more quality gains? Is is worth spending more on EQ and Test and doing Test 700mg wk and EQ 600 or Test 600mg wk and EQ 500mg wk?

2. Finally, some people have been saying EQ starts to really kick in around wk 12? Is it worth extending my cycle longer? And if so how long?

I would really appreciate any help. Again thanks for all the knowledge i got from everyone.

Many people do not understand that PCT for Deca and EQ are almost identicle but the PCT is very different then PCT for any other steroids . The reality is, EQ or deca both are perhaps best done on a 20 to 25 week cycle with a 50 to 100 mg dose increase every 10th week. If EQ is only just kicking in right when you are ending your cycle, sounds like you are getting nothing out of it which is the case with a 10 to 12 week EQ cycle. Deca kicks in about week #6 so that only gives 4 weeks of growth... when you could have more time for fantastic gains. Myself I like deca better, its made for humans, EQ is not, but also deca is about the easiest on your bone joints and the gains are notoriously keepable. The fact is, you SHOULD carry over your testosterone doses at least 2 weeks after your last deca injection and 3 weeks after your last EQ injection.

The carry over test should NOT be your full dose as done thru your cycle, it should be about 100 to 150 mg in order to begin weaning down your estrogen levels while maintaining adequate androgens to prevent feminization or depression. Then 2 weeks after your last testosterone injection (presuming enanthate or cypionate , prop and sust are not good for EQ or Deca stacks), you then start clomid. I find starting dose of 100 mg is all thats necessary and carry on for 10 to 14 days. Tongkat ali taken as soon as you take your last testosterone injection will fantastically aid in recovery with clomid. Tongkat ali can be purchased very cheaply on the internet for like $30 for 100 tabs, one name brand is Red Kat, but its also available at GNC if despirate for $100 for Red Kat or $20 for generic lable tongkat ali.

[hellapimpin]

eq needs to be stopped a week before the test.

[AG5678]

damn thats interesting. I was taking notes on paper for that.

Ntpadude you don't think thats to advanced for a 1st cycle?

Should i just stick to "Test Only" and do it the RIGHT way with the EQ or Deca in the future?

[MatrixGuy]

Many people do not understand that PCT for Deca and EQ are almost identicle but the PCT is very different then PCT for any other steroids . The reality is, EQ or deca both are perhaps best done on a 20 to 25 week cycle with a 50 to 100 mg dose increase every 10th week. If EQ is only just kicking in right when you are ending your cycle, sounds like you are getting nothing out of it which is the case with a 10 to 12 week EQ cycle. Deca kicks in about week #6 so that only gives 4 weeks of growth... when you could have more time for fantastic gains. Myself I like deca better, its made for humans, EQ is not, but also deca is about the easiest on your bone joints and the gains are notoriously keepable. The fact is, you SHOULD carry over your testosterone doses at least 2 weeks after your last deca injection and 3 weeks after your last EQ injection.

The carry over test should NOT be your full dose as done thru your cycle, it should be about 100 to 150 mg in order to begin weaning down your estrogen levels while maintaining adequate androgens to prevent feminization or depression. Then 2 weeks after your last testosterone injection (presuming enanthate or cypionate, prop and sust are not good for EQ or Deca stacks), you then start clomid. I find starting dose of 100 mg is all thats necessary and carry on for 10 to 14 days. Tongkat ali taken as soon as you take your last testosterone injection will fantastically aid in recovery with clomid. Tongkat ali can be purchased very cheaply on the internet for like $30 for 100 tabs, one name brand is Red Kat, but its also available at GNC if despirate for $100 for Red Kat or $20 for generic lable tongkat ali.

My first cycle i was going to run EQ for 12 weeks (with test e for 13wks) You saying this will be pointless?

[Deezuhl]

my advice is not to run the eq 1st cycle and maybe give the deca a shot at 400mg ew.. problem with running eq as you stated was it really needs to be run at 600mg ew and with it being your 1st cycle you would then have to run test at 750.. With the test e at 500 and deca at 400mg you may be better off. Just my opinion.. And yes the eq almost definitely takes 8-9 weeks to kick in.. for me it was right dead on the week 9. So to maximize your gains the best way to run test and eq IMO is to run test for 16 weeks and eq for 15,.. which is not ideal for your 1st cycle..

[MatrixGuy]

my advice is not to run the eq 1st cycle and maybe give the deca a shot at 400mg ew.. problem with running eq as you stated was it really needs to be run at 600mg ew and with it being your 1st cycle you would then have to run test at 750.. With the test e at 500 and deca at 400mg you may be better off. Just my opinion.. And yes the eq almost definitely takes 8-9 weeks to kick in.. for me it was right dead on the week 9. So to maximize your gains the best way to run test and eq IMO is to run test for 16 weeks and eq for 15,.. which is not ideal for your 1st cycle..

Ah, problem is i have already bought the EQ now.. 3 bottles of it. (with 3 bottles of test e)

[Mesomorphyl]

I think 400 is a good dose first time around with 500 of test that is...

[Deezuhl]

I think 400 is a good dose first time around with 500 of test that is...

what do you know anyway.....




JK Big Dawg..

[MatrixGuy]

I think 400 is a good dose first time around with 500 of test that is...

Thats the dosages i will be running bro for my 1st cycle.

[Two4the$$]

I just finished that cycle, Test-E and EQ. My recommendations are as follows.

FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD
FRONTLOAD



Okay, those are my suggestions. lol

Seriously, the thing about these cycle lengths and how long it takes for it to kick in is simply because you are ADDING the remaining mg that hasn't expired from the last dosage to the next one ... which gradually builds up to a peak around week 7 or 8. Thus, you start getting the full INTENDED effect around that time. You can circumvent this WHOLE ramp up process and frontload. You're goal isn't related to what you inject weekly per se, it's how many ACTIVE mg there are in your body per day. THAT is the important number. Do a little more research on concluding how you want to initiate that. Since you already have 3 bottles of each, which isn't enough for a complete cycle in the first place, buy some Test-prop and some Boldenone Acetate. Use those for the first few weeks, as WELL as the enanthate and undecyclynate (sp?). Anyway, if you don't want to do frequent jabs, then simply frontload the EQ and Enanthate the first week. It will be a scary sounding dosage, but remember, 500mg would be a scary amount to inject if it were going to be instantly active. But it's not. It's slowly released. And that release rate is what is of greatest concern.

Dude, checkout the roid calculator. Experiment on there with different dosages, and frontloading. Set up your normal cycle on there, and see what your residual is on week 8 BEFORE you inject. Essentially, ADD that to 500mg... thats the amount of MG you need in your body to get the daily release value you're targeting.

You've got EQ, forget the Deca . It maybe good advice, but it's irrelevant at this point. It's a good bulking drug, ie, you retain a lot of water. And, what's really nice about deca, is that you can get gyno from it... and nolvadex won't help you. You have to attack those progestenic sides from various non direct fronts, or, take RU486. But in any case, it's not as simple as what you're doing. If you're going to risk progesterone sides, take Tren . At least you have a LOT to gain from the risk.

EQ is a great drug. It will stimulate your appetite, give you quality gains, make you vascular, and is super mild in terms of sides.

Finally, I'd definitely suggest bumping the dose. Based on my last cycle that is my suggestion. The thing is, you never know if your gear is underdosed or not. So take that advice with a grain of salt...

[AG5678]

so what did your complete cycle look like? TrumanHW

[Two4the$$]

Well, it was turbulent. I did go from 193 to 209... which is good, but sometimes I had delays in getting gear, and if I'm not mistaken some of it was fake, or possibly under dosed. So for that, a fu(king unscheduled learning experience.

Side notes on all that are as follows... MAKE YOUR OWN GEAR! Okay, when that's not possible, frontload... it minimizes the anxious time of waiting for it to kick in and figure out if it’s real or not.

I did it for about 13 weeks. Good gains. Lots of comments from people… Not so blatant were my gains that people accused me of AAS, and I'm happy about that. But, sometimes people (girls) would say ... "Truman? Wow, I didn't know if that was you at first. How are you doing?" And to me, there's no better compliment than that. lol.

I went from benching 155 up to 225... However I never was able to do 3 sets of 225 x 8. It was always my first heavy set after warming up, then down to 205 x 8 for the last two sets... as a for instance of my gains. My arms are about the same pitiful measurement as they were before (12in unflexed, 13 flexed, I’m tall, which makes it a bit tougher to accumulate mass)... so I'm going to start experimenting with number of sets, and the reps in those sets. Anyway, for the most part, I'm pleased. I got fairly good results, in SPITE the sporadic dosing... I even was taking prop for a little while in the middle, as I felt confident that I would know if it was fake while I was waiting for the gear I was getting from a UGL.

Anyway, I'm waiting for my goddamned PCT gear to get here... lol. I didn't retain any water that I could tell, so I don't expect to lose much. I'm not quite sure why that is... but I didn't, and I’m grateful for it.

I'm guessing that's not you in the avatar?

I will recommend a few ancillary devices to keep on hand and use as needed.

Dawn dishwashing soap (May help with acne)
Benzoyl Peroxide Soap (Acne soap, dry you out.)
Salicylic Acid Soap (Acne soap, dry you out.)
Accutane (Will reduce your sebaceous glands, helping with acne, make pores smaller)
Proscar (Shrink the colon, minimize hair loss, may help with acne)
Arimidex (Keep one bottle around, if you think you may have development of gyno, this is a the best price/effectiveness drug … and when you see it forming you don’t want to wait to get it, you need it ON HAND already)
B6 (supposedly helps with hormonal balancing)
Cabergoline (totally optional, anti prolactin, good for sex)
B12 injectable (Helps with appetite and energy levels)

FRONTLOAD!!!!!!!

[Alpha-Male]

please explain your "frontloading" theory in greater detail...i didn't see much in that last post

[Two4the$$]

Okay, the frontloading theory is actually self evidenced if you go here ...

http://www.roidcalc.com/

Remember, there are two factors that control your physical response to the drugs.

1. The daily release/active value...
2. Time for your body to start responding to it.

First, if you take Test-prop, it doesn’t affect you instantly... it takes a little while to kick in, despite its instant bio availability.

Second, an injection of 500mg of enanthate only releases about 210mg in to your system the first week. The daily mg breakdown varies, but on average... its between 22-40mg (assuming you've split it in to two injections). Thus, 500mg depot = 210mg on week 1, 330mg on week two, and so on. On top of that, mg per mg, enanthate is weaker, the ester takes up a greater amount of space/weight, so it's actually about 10% less than prop when considering that factor... and finally, if you divide 330/7 you still get less than 50mg per day of Test ... which most people on here would say is a rather light protocol. So weeks one and two, you're signaling your HPTA to reduce endogenous test production, your balls are atrophying, but you aren't reaping the full benefits of your intended risks. Obviously, each successive week gets better, but why wait? If you run double (instead of 250 Monday, and 250 Thursday, 500 Monday and Thursday) you get the exact same mg per day released from week 2 throughout the rest of your cycle. Thus, you do have to wait for your body to start responding to it, but you are not ramping up the mg any more... Your daily test values will be between 58 - 78mg, from week 2 through the end of your cycle. THAT IS IDEAL in my book.

WARNING! I used the EQ (boldenone ) input column... so the half life is slightly off in this calculation, but the theory is accurate... test it out for yourself and decide accordingly.

[Two4the$$]

Anyone disagree?

[Gills]

I agree with the frontload 100% truman. However, you did give one bad piece of advice, you recommened the use of bold ace..........I have two threads on this stuff, the only way it was ever useful was as a transdermal. Did you happen to find a UG that had made it painless? Did you come up with a homebrew recipe for it? by the way, I was going to post up a Waiting to kick in thread to go along with my test higher thread, and explain front loading to everyone, but looks like you beat me to it.

[Two4the$$]

Thanks dude. As far as the Bold Ace, you wont believe this.. and I definitely don't mean to hijack... but I think my UGL dealer just kept my money and sent nothing. I'm PISSED! And I will retaliate to the best of my ability by joining everyboard and mentioning this. If that doesnt inspire a prompt refund or shipment of goods I'll think of something else. Otherwise, yeah, I DID know of a UGL that had Bold Ace, and as far as a home brew... that's kind of a bummer. I didn't realize that bold-ace was an unknown recipe. I do have access to to Bold-Ace through my UGL, if he gets his shit together.

Since I mentioned the Roid calc, and because it is most certainly on topic, I want this board to make one. A BETTER one. I just need to get with hooker on this and I'll put together a program reflective of the equations... The original roid calc doesn't make it easy to choose different half lifes, or at least I'm not confident in it.

[Two4the$$]

Even better would be an excel spreadsheet with the formulas imbedded with locked fields for all but the necessary cells for changing the mg and half life. I would definitely make sure it was reflective of Hookers point, which is ACTIVE mg... That's an interesting subject too. :-) If he'd write a post about it.

[Alpha-Male]

Truman, what about TrenE? can/should that be frontloaded as well?

[Two4the$$]

Okay, I did the leg work on the roid calculator.

This is a drug with a 5 day half life, DON'T CONFUSE that. lol.

The motivation for frontloading is simple logic. Days my nuts are producing test are days I want to be reaping benefits from. There's no reason to be engaged in risk without equivalently measured potential for benefit.


Group 1 is:

1000mg of test during week one as frontload
500mg of test throughout remainder of 8 weeks. They both get stable after that, so extending it would just relplicate the results of week 8 on out. It is important to remember that a little bit extra during the first few weeks may actually be advantageous as it will accelerate the lag time. Still important is that 500mg of enanthate is still not as much as 500mg of Prop, the ester is bigger. Thus, Test-prop at 75mg per day equates to 525mg per week of MORE test (7% is it?) ... anyway, no one should be alarmed about an extra 30mg throughout a week.

Week 1 497 99%
Week 2 530 106%
Week 3 495 99%
Week 4 482 96%
Week 5 479 96%
Week 6 475 95%
Week 7 475 95%
Week 8 475 95%



Group 2 is the standard protocol of 500mg of Test-E split in two shots each week for 8 weeks. No frontloading. Note how many weeks pass before you reach 90% of the intended volume. THOSE STATISTICS (I'm saying this in caps because it is important) WILL BE STATIC! That means, REGARDLESS of the mg, the percentage in your system will be the same, I used 500mg because it is typical. But if you were doing 750mg, in week 3 with the no frontload group you could expect 607mg to be released. That's 750 x .81 = 607mg.

Week 1 195 39%
Week 2 336 67%
Week 3 406 81%
Week 4 439 88%
Week 5 458 92%
Week 6 466 93%
Week 7 471 94%
Week 8 473 95%

Even still, IF your gear is real, and you're always perfect on dosing etc... people say you don't fully start feeling it until week 5 or so. Thats because weeks 1, 2, 3 are ramping up, and week 4 and 5 actually start giving you a sense of how strong the effect will be throughout the duration. And some even report their gear kicking in LATER.

Frontloading may actually preserve your HPTA to an extent ... consider this; less time shut down means less difficult to recover. Less time spent off as well.

My final thoughts on this are to ALWAYS initiate any new compounds usage by using the SHORTEST ester possible. Once you know your ideal dosage, then and ONLY then should you switch to the more convenient long ester.

[Gills]

Yes, IMO all long acting esters should be if you are impatient like myself......

[Two4the$$]

GOOD question AM. I was wondering the same thing. Personally, when I do try Tren , (whiich I must admit to being a bit scared...) I'm going to use Acetate. I will use this theory in figuring out my weekly dosage...

You can't make fine tuned adjustments on shit with a long half life. Do 75mg ED of Prop, or at least 150mg EOD. Forget the bullshit lag times with Enanthate . You can't even tell if your gear is real or not for 4-5 weeks. You'll think it is if you're taking Diana, but, you won't know. Anyway, with prop, if after two weeks you don't have itchy nipples, up it to 100mg ED, or 200 EOD. I mean, the point of lowering the dosage is to avoid sides... you can start off with as little as 50mg ED, or 100 EOD, and in fact, you are actually getting MORE test per 100mg injection because the ester takes less room in this case. Anyway, as I was saying, the point of keeping the Test low is to avoid the side affects. With enanthate, it's almost impossible to know what dose you are getting on a daily basis because of the buildup and lag in kicking in. Once you figure out what your sensitivity is to androgenics, THEN you can **** with long half life compounds like Enanthate. It's a pain in the ass, literally to deal with the frequent jabs, but dont you want to figure out what your body responds well to so that in the future you can picking a dosing schedule that's most accurate? Also, NO LAG time, and you don't have to wait 2 weeks to start PCT because of the test.


Okay, the middle paragraph I wrote yesterday in another post. THe point is, ESPECIALLY with something like Tren, I would want to figure out my sensitivity before being committed to it for 3 weeks. Those could be SCARY times if your body's not cool with Tren. While you're using the Acetate, you can change your blood concentration of it almost to a tee. Once you know how many mg per day works for you, THEN you switch to a Depot.

[Alpha-Male]

so really, at around week 4 the levels are pretty damn near the same...so i guess that's why some choose to simply kickstart with 40mg of dbol a day for the first 4 weeks, to give the test time to reach stable levels...thanks for the info Tru...

[Two4the$$]

I think thats probably the motivation for the Diana also... If I were going to do Diana I would put it in with EQ and Test. I posted a thread I copied a few days ago... It was pretty interesting, once you get past the guys language skills... or maybe he was using a more urban dialect than I'm familiar with... lol. Anyway, His point was that DBol was the most Anti Catabolic of all the AAS, and Nandrolone being highly anabolic made it an exceptional combination. Of course, always test... and in my mind, since its the anabolic properties of NPP that are being referenced, why not use EQ instead, I think the DBol will give someone all the water retention anyone could stand in the first place... But anyway, back to the point... the DBol/NPP he mentioned made a perfect contrast to foster RAPID strength and muscle gains. I actually vascilate between doing Tren or Dbol as my builder... but Tren is truly leading in my mind... with its increased feed efficiency, and potential fat burning abilities... but, at the expense of having to take RU486 to combat potential progestenic sides... Decisions decisions... Maybe a poll is in order.

[ianchov]

Wow!

Bros, really good threat!


ps. can someone tell me what`s RU486

[puremusc00]

very helpful! BUMP

[Defconx3]

This is a good thread. I totally agree with the frontloading information posted here, it is a really good concept and im surprised that some Bros still do not do it.

ps. can someone tell me what`s RU486

Its known as "the abortion pill", its the pill that you give a women to induce abortion. It is a progestrone blocker among other things, it is the only truely effective way to combat progestrone related gyno that could be caused by deca or tren use.

[Two4the$$]

That or Falsodex...

[Trafficdodger]

Great info.....never really looked at frontloading like that. Hats off to Truman for being able to explain an idea thoroughly and well written; good food for thought for newbs like me.