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  1. #1
    Rufus is offline Junior Member
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    Test levels never recovering?

    Has anyone's Testosterone levels been permantaly damaged from AAS use even though they did PROPER PCT?

  2. #2
    Orion141 is offline Junior Member
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    bump cuz i wanna know as well


    Orion

  3. #3
    musclestack is offline Productive Member
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    I'll give ya another bump as well. But also, to add to your question, exactly how bad would you have to "abuse" AAS to permanently damage your natural testosterone levels ?

  4. #4
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    Plenty of people on this board have permenently damaged their HPTA with the progressive and consistent use of aromatizing/highly androgenic (and progestenic) steroids . BLOOD work would simply tell, but those IRRESPONSIBLE enough to abuse AAS, probably were not responisble enough to GET BLOODWORK...so we won't know for sure in many cases, although we can definitely say that many people will be needing Viagra forever.

    I am not one of them...

    I have NEVER exposed my body to ESTROGENS. Estrogen is what causes penile/testicle shrinkage, and decreased libido. (and gyno, acne, depression, and fat gain)!!!

    Stay away from AROMATIZING steroids....

  5. #5
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pump A Holic
    Plenty of people on this board have permenently damaged their HPTA with the progressive and consistent use of aromatizing/highly androgenic (and progestenic) steroids . BLOOD work would simply tell, but those IRRESPONSIBLE enough to abuse AAS, probably were not responisble enough to GET BLOODWORK...so we won't know for sure in many cases, although we can definitely say that many people will be needing Viagra forever.

    I am not one of them...

    I have NEVER exposed my body to ESTROGENS. Estrogen is what causes penile/testicle shrinkage, and decreased libido. (and gyno, acne, depression, and fat gain)!!!

    Stay away from AROMATIZING steroids....
    Well I believe you have things sort of screwed up. Most people recover wonderfully well from testosterone only cycles but find permanent damage from trenbalone and deca durabolin , both are not aromatizing steroids but are legendary in their damage to your manhood. You might want to research things before you write an opinion as if you are "the authority". What helps is clever use of anti-estrogens when needed, HCG or better yet tongkat ali can stave off ALL damage because you can resume normal testosterone production in spite of being "on cycle".

  6. #6
    Deezuhl is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pump A Holic
    Plenty of people on this board have permenently damaged their HPTA with the progressive and consistent use of aromatizing/highly androgenic (and progestenic) steroids . BLOOD work would simply tell, but those IRRESPONSIBLE enough to abuse AAS, probably were not responisble enough to GET BLOODWORK...so we won't know for sure in many cases, although we can definitely say that many people will be needing Viagra forever.

    I am not one of them...

    I have NEVER exposed my body to ESTROGENS. Estrogen is what causes penile/testicle shrinkage, and decreased libido. (and gyno, acne, depression, and fat gain)!!!

    Stay away from AROMATIZING steroids....
    Ross Bro Take a break.. you really are a peice of work.. "penile shrinkage".. Your awesome..

  7. #7
    Deezuhl is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    Well I believe you have things sort of screwed up. Most people recover wonderfully well from testosterone only cycles but find permanent damage from trenbalone and deca durabolin, both are not aromatizing steroids but are legendary in their damage to your manhood. You might want to research things before you write an opinion as if you are "the authority". What helps is clever use of anti-estrogens when needed, HCG or better yet tongkat ali can stave off ALL damage because you can resume normal testosterone production in spite of being "on cycle".
    you been around enough to know.. Pump A Holic is Mind OF ROSS .. so I would just ignore every response he has as he does ours when we state that we know its him hiding like the coward he is.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pump A Holic
    Plenty of people on this board have permenently damaged their HPTA with the progressive and consistent use of aromatizing/highly androgenic (and progestenic) steroids . BLOOD work would simply tell, but those IRRESPONSIBLE enough to abuse AAS, probably were not responisble enough to GET BLOODWORK...so we won't know for sure in many cases, although we can definitely say that many people will be needing Viagra forever.

    I am not one of them...

    I have NEVER exposed my body to ESTROGENS. Estrogen is what causes penile/testicle shrinkage, and decreased libido. (and gyno, acne, depression, and fat gain)!!!

    Stay away from AROMATIZING steroids....
    Yeah, whatever...Estrogen is in your body if you do AAS or not. I know you're doing tbol as I am right now and a certain amount of that drug will convert into estrogen. Yes, it has a low androgenic score with limited aromatase but it does convert into estrogen at low amounts. You NEED a certain amount of estrogen to grow muscle, you just want to keep the ratio a lot farther on the test side. You should do some research on the endocrine system before making statements like that.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    " but find permanent damage from trenbalone and deca durabolin, both are not aromatizing steroids but are legendary in their damage to your manhood. "
    What type of permanent damage are we talking about from Trenbalone?

  10. #10
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    SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF ESTROGEN cause PENILE/TESTICLE SHRINKAGE--it is USED IN TRANSEX SURGERIES!

    The MALE body does not produce Estrogen! IT MAKES ESTROGEN VIA THE AROMATASE ENZYME! IT CONVERTS TEST INTO ESTRO!

    That MINIMAL amount of estrogen is all the body requires. ANY aromatizing steroid will cause SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS of ESTRO! For example, during a cycle of testosetrone, your body will see 10 TIMES as much estrogen as it has EVER SEEN!

    By the way, Nandrolone DOES aromatize. AND, progestenic activity is ALMOST as bad as estrogenic.

  11. #11
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    mark956101957 is offline Anabolic Member
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    You are so full of shit- so you are saying any one doing gear that produces estrogen than their penis shrinks? Please! LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark956101957
    You are so full of shit- so you are saying any one doing gear that produces estrogen than their penis shrinks? Please! LOL
    NO...aromatizing steroids dont shrink the penis--BUT THEY CAN!

    ESTROGEN is the culprit. The male body was not designed for estrogen as the female body was not designed for test. BOTH bodies METABOLIZE their Primary sex hormone(test and estro respectively) into the other. TEST into ESTRO via aromatase, ESTRO into TEST.

    When the female has SUPRAPHYSIOLGICAL levels of TEST--she starts to grow a PENIS. This is called a BB CLIT.

  13. #13
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    penile shrinkage? LMMFAO!! yeah your nuts can shrink due to low production, but the divining rod is safe. sorry bro, foot taste good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wink182
    penile shrinkage? LMMFAO!! yeah your nuts can shrink due to low production, but the divining rod is safe. sorry bro, foot taste good?
    I am NOT saying that your penis will shrink from steroids . i used an analogy to illustrate the effects of estrogen in the MALE body..

    Remember, when the female body is exposed to testosterone , it grows a PENIS (enlarged clitoris)

  15. #15
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    I just turned 20 last week and my doctor has now prescribed me viagra. I did 2 cycles of test and deca with proper pct. My cycles were 500 mg test and 300 mg of deca. I ran HCG 500 ius 2x a week through the last portion of my cycle ...ended it a week before pct and ran my nolvadex and clomid. I also just got my test levels checked yesterday, and now i gotta wair a week for the results. It sucks not being able to get erections even when watching porn....its depressing , i just hope i dont have to stay on viagra forever !!!

  16. #16
    Keyser Sozey is offline Anabolic Member
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    I cycle once a year for about 16 weeks. During this time, I will have blood work done before I begin my cycle, week 4, week 8, week 12, week 16 and finally on week 20.
    I have never had any problems whatsoever (mild acne---about it). Test levels always back to normal by wk 20.
    I figure that pre cycle, mid cycle, and post cycle blood tests would be fine as well.

  17. #17
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkv213
    What type of permanent damage are we talking about from Trenbalone?
    Trenbalone (Fina) is just like deca ... you can get fina-dicked just like you get deca dicked. Deca actually has a bad reputation for poor recovery but its mostly because it lasts in your blood stream 4 weeks, sometimes 5 weeks if you over use or reinject the same spot over and over again (scar tissue is slower to release its gear then fresh muscle). So often the mistake with deca is simply people start PCT too early because they dont understand that their deca hasnt worn off yet. Fina/tren on the other hand causes big time shutdowns and most people do tren acetate which wears off in a handful of days and yet many guys complain about recoveries being as difficult deca. Deca will only inhibit recover so long as its actively present in your blood stream, but tren can inhibit recover long after its completely worn off and absent from your blood.

  18. #18
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pump A Holic
    1)SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS OF ESTROGEN cause PENILE/TESTICLE SHRINKAGE--it is USED IN TRANSEX SURGERIES!

    2)The MALE body does not produce Estrogen! IT MAKES ESTROGEN VIA THE AROMATASE ENZYME! IT CONVERTS TEST INTO ESTRO!

    3)That MINIMAL amount of estrogen is all the body requires. ANY aromatizing steroid will cause SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVELS of ESTRO! For example, during a cycle of testosetrone, your body will see 10 TIMES as much estrogen as it has EVER SEEN!

    4)By the way, Nandrolone DOES aromatize. AND, progestenic activity is ALMOST as bad as estrogenic.
    1) If you are given estrogen, it shuts down your testosterone production. Having estrogen present and lack of testosterone is the condition used in transex surguries. The fact of the matter is, but male hormone is a very powerful "anti-estrogen" in its own right. Most males can tollerate up to 10 times the normal estrogen without simptoms or side effects provided the testosterone is present and generally around 5 times more abundant then the estrogen. Generally aromatization maintains the natural 5 to 1 ratio of estrogen to testosterone in the male body.

    2) There is a very important function for estrogen in the male body. Estrogen is an anti-testosterone just as testosterone is an anti-estrogen. The 2 partially counteract each other's side effects. For example if you are going to have 10 times the normal testosterone in your body, you actually WANT to have 10 times the estrogen. This is because the estrogen at this balanced ratio will lower your cholesterol levels, lower your blood pressure. The worst thing you can do is overuse aromatase inhibitors because then your blood pressure and cholesterol will skyrocket really really bad. What you want aromatase inhibitors or anti-estrogens for is to keep estrogen levels from exceeding that 900 to 1000% of normal level as this is where side effects such as gynomastia and testicle shrinkage begin to occur. Although even with very very high levels of estrogen - like even at 2000% of normal, penile shrinkage is unheard of. Moderate increase in size of penis is actually common amoung steroid users that use mostly testosterone although hypertrophy of penis may reverse to normal when the testosterone is discontinued.

    3) Not true, if you elevate your testosterone, its critical to also elevate your estrogen. Your body ACTUALLY knows best and is elevating your estrogens for good reason. The estrogen keeps your blood pressure lower and also substantially lowers cholesterol levels.

    4) Nandralone and other can generate progestin which is 10,000 times worst for a man then estrogen and NEVER should be present at any quantity in a man's body. However its not so easy to get progestin out of deca or tren . It takes doses that are unheard of being used, something like in excess of 1.5 grams of deca per week to generate even slightly detectable amounts of progestin.

  19. #19
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuN3
    I just turned 20 last week and my doctor has now prescribed me viagra. I did 2 cycles of test and deca with proper pct. My cycles were 500 mg test and 300 mg of deca. I ran HCG 500 ius 2x a week through the last portion of my cycle ...ended it a week before pct and ran my nolvadex and clomid. I also just got my test levels checked yesterday, and now i gotta wair a week for the results. It sucks not being able to get erections even when watching porn....its depressing , i just hope i dont have to stay on viagra forever !!!
    Did you wait 4 to 5 weeks after the last deca injection before starting clomid based PCT? ALso tongkat ali is highly recommendable... it can be done in place of HCG , overpower the deca shutdown just as well as HCG but it can be run thru entire deca cycle and even during the no injection period and on thru PCT and beyond with nothing but highly favorable results and no negative effects to your HTPA like HCG can. If you get on tongkat now, in 4 or 5 days you can be fully restored, rapidly regrowing balls and cum loads and full sex drive as well as normalized natural testosterone production.

  20. #20
    RuN3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    Did you wait 4 to 5 weeks after the last deca injection before starting clomid based PCT? ALso tongkat ali is highly recommendable... it can be done in place of HCG, overpower the deca shutdown just as well as HCG but it can be run thru entire deca cycle and even during the no injection period and on thru PCT and beyond with nothing but highly favorable results and no negative effects to your HTPA like HCG can. If you get on tongkat now, in 4 or 5 days you can be fully restored, rapidly regrowing balls and cum loads and full sex drive as well as normalized natural testosterone production.

    I waited 3 weeks before starting my pct...my junk worked during the cycle but after it just went limp....its tempting to do another cycle now just so that i can get erections !!

  21. #21
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuN3
    I waited 3 weeks before starting my pct...my junk worked during the cycle but after it just went limp....its tempting to do another cycle now just so that i can get erections !!
    When I do deca ... I run high doses for 6 months at a time but in the 4th month, deca dick overtakes the testosterone I run with it. You know what gets the sex drive back for me? Chinese herbal product from Asia called Tongkat ali.... approximately 25 times more potent the tribulus, the darn stuff will rapidly regrow your nutz just the same as HCG and its just 2 pills of tongkat ali extract a day! Not only do nutz regrow but sex drive returns in full force, cum loads return along with sperm count, volume and thickness. The tongkat ali completely overpowers deca dick while on cycle... I also think its actually capable of overpowering deca dick in a "deca only" cycle. But also in my past deca cycles... all thru the 3 to 4 week NO INJECTION period before PCT, sex drive is fully supported and strong... going into clomid... hell no differnence because erections and sex drive is strong and vigorous as hell even 4 and 5 weeks after last deca or test injection, almost dont even need clomid at all but I do it anyways... then after PCT... as long as I stay on tongkat... sex drive continues to be very strong and vigorous, gains are kept and retained very very well because since my natural testosterone production is on-going thru the entire process... it makes PCT's such a pleasure to go thru.

  22. #22
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    Ntpadude

    Excellent information!

  23. #23
    RuN3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    When I do deca... I run high doses for 6 months at a time but in the 4th month, deca dick overtakes the testosterone I run with it. You know what gets the sex drive back for me? Chinese herbal product from Asia called Tongkat ali.... approximately 25 times more potent the tribulus, the darn stuff will rapidly regrow your nutz just the same as HCG and its just 2 pills of tongkat ali extract a day! Not only do nutz regrow but sex drive returns in full force, cum loads return along with sperm count, volume and thickness. The tongkat ali completely overpowers deca dick while on cycle... I also think its actually capable of overpowering deca dick in a "deca only" cycle. But also in my past deca cycles... all thru the 3 to 4 week NO INJECTION period before PCT, sex drive is fully supported and strong... going into clomid... hell no differnence because erections and sex drive is strong and vigorous as hell even 4 and 5 weeks after last deca or test injection, almost dont even need clomid at all but I do it anyways... then after PCT... as long as I stay on tongkat... sex drive continues to be very strong and vigorous, gains are kept and retained very very well because since my natural testosterone production is on-going thru the entire process... it makes PCT's such a pleasure to go thru.
    thx for the help !! can you buy tongkat at a drugstore ??? or is it an illegal substance to sell without a prescription

  24. #24
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuN3
    thx for the help !! can you buy tongkat at a drugstore ??? or is it an illegal substance to sell without a prescription
    GNC, healthfood stores... the internet is an excellent place to buy good quality tongkat at low prices. There are several brands available. Red-Kat and dynadrol both are very good high potency brands, but also products like Oxo-6 has "some" in it although comparitively low potency, also some really big mainstream products sold by large pharmacutical companies like Libidus and Enzyte also are based on tongkat ali along with other products. Again your best potency and deal would probably be with red-kat or dynadrol.

  25. #25
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    Does that stuff have anysides??

  26. #26
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    SO you take the Tongkat during your cycle and PCT, that wouldmt mest up your gains

  27. #27
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100m champ
    Does that stuff have anysides??
    Yes if you are on deca , then you MAY take tongkat 7 days a week... if you are into PCT or not on cycle... then you can get a hypertrophy condition where your balls enlarge too much from over production of testosterone and cum production.

    You can get to where you are having wet dreams every night of the week and discharging cum and also random spontanious orgasms at any time of day as well as premature ejaculation or even a painful condition of excessive cum being held in your nutz. To avoid this then take tongkat only 5 days of the week and take 2 days off...

  28. #28
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    Thanks bro I'll give it a shot I'm on Deca .

  29. #29
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    I suspect that it actually takes your HPTA longer than most people think to fully recover. I recall coming across a study done where they gave young men various dosages of testosterone for two months, then abruptly stopped it. All of them eventually recovered their baseline levels of test, but for some it took up to 8 months.
    So doing 6 weeks of PCT may just be getting your test production barely back into the normal range. The only way to know for sure you're recovered is to get blood work done.

    During my last PCT, I used tongkat ali for 30 days and it definitely seem to improve my libido.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    Yes if you are on deca , then you MAY take tongkat 7 days a week... if you are into PCT or not on cycle... then you can get a hypertrophy condition where your balls enlarge too much from over production of testosterone and cum production.

    You can get to where you are having wet dreams every night of the week and discharging cum and also random spontanious orgasms at any time of day as well as premature ejaculation or even a painful condition of excessive cum being held in your nutz. To avoid this then take tongkat only 5 days of the week and take 2 days off...
    LOL LOL Funny, funny shit bro

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntpadude
    1) If you are given estrogen, it shuts down your testosterone production. Having estrogen present and lack of testosterone is the condition used in transex surguries. The fact of the matter is, but male hormone is a very powerful "anti-estrogen" in its own right. Most males can tollerate up to 10 times the normal estrogen without simptoms or side effects provided the testosterone is present and generally around 5 times more abundant then the estrogen. Generally aromatization maintains the natural 5 to 1 ratio of estrogen to testosterone in the male body.

    2) There is a very important function for estrogen in the male body. Estrogen is an anti-testosterone just as testosterone is an anti-estrogen. The 2 partially counteract each other's side effects. For example if you are going to have 10 times the normal testosterone in your body, you actually WANT to have 10 times the estrogen. This is because the estrogen at this balanced ratio will lower your cholesterol levels, lower your blood pressure. The worst thing you can do is overuse aromatase inhibitors because then your blood pressure and cholesterol will skyrocket really really bad. What you want aromatase inhibitors or anti-estrogens for is to keep estrogen levels from exceeding that 900 to 1000% of normal level as this is where side effects such as gynomastia and testicle shrinkage begin to occur. Although even with very very high levels of estrogen - like even at 2000% of normal, penile shrinkage is unheard of. Moderate increase in size of penis is actually common amoung steroid users that use mostly testosterone although hypertrophy of penis may reverse to normal when the testosterone is discontinued.

    3) Not true, if you elevate your testosterone, its critical to also elevate your estrogen. Your body ACTUALLY knows best and is elevating your estrogens for good reason. The estrogen keeps your blood pressure lower and also substantially lowers cholesterol levels.

    4) Nandralone and other can generate progestin which is 10,000 times worst for a man then estrogen and NEVER should be present at any quantity in a man's body. However its not so easy to get progestin out of deca or tren. It takes doses that are unheard of being used, something like in excess of 1.5 grams of deca per week to generate even slightly detectable amounts of progestin.
    That was the biggest hunk of bullshit I have EVER READ.

    Your body does not "ELEVATE estrogen deliberately" to compensate for the increase in test. Your body simply CAN NOT UTILIZE EXCESS TESTOSETRONE(for anabolism or funtion) in circulation! Once that threshold of utilization is surpassed, the aromatase enzyme(not knowing any better) converts the EXCESS TEST into estrogen--causing FEMINIZATION--Developments of BREAST TISSUE, SHRINKAGE OF TESTICLES, ECT.

    It is NEVER good to have ZERO ESTROGEN--this is not the issue.

    AND--the penis can NOT HYPERTROPHY--as it is NOT A MUSCLE! LOL! This just shows how little you know.

    Don't think that I won't spot your pseudo-intellectual babble again.

    As for Tongkat--great herb

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pump A Holic
    I am not one of them...

    I have NEVER exposed my body to ESTROGENS. Estrogen is what causes penile/testicle shrinkage, and decreased libido. (and gyno, acne, depression, and fat gain)!!!

    Stay away from AROMATIZING steroids....
    hmmmmmm!
    the estrogen part is true but as long as i have my 1.25mg/ED letrozole suit on, im gonna go extra close to aromatizing steroids there shouldn't be any problems

  33. #33
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    "AND--the penis can NOT HYPERTROPHY--as it is NOT A MUSCLE! LOL! This just shows how little you know"

    .hy·per·tro·phy Pronunciation (h-pûrtr-f)
    n. pl. hy·per·tro·phies
    A nontumorous enlargement of an organ or a tissue as a result of an increase in the size rather than the number of constituent cells

  34. #34
    mizuno is offline Junior Member
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    you all are all wrong. steriods make ur wee wee grow HUGE and it gets so big that it pops off. DUH!!!

    oh and pump a holic explains it the way i have came to understand so i think pump a holic is correct or at least more correct.

  35. #35
    alex117k is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RuN3
    I just turned 20 last week and my doctor has now prescribed me viagra. I did 2 cycles of test and deca with proper pct. My cycles were 500 mg test and 300 mg of deca. I ran HCG 500 ius 2x a week through the last portion of my cycle ...ended it a week before pct and ran my nolvadex and clomid. I also just got my test levels checked yesterday, and now i gotta wair a week for the results. It sucks not being able to get erections even when watching porn....its depressing , i just hope i dont have to stay on viagra forever !!!
    Why don't your run NPP instead of Deca next time so that it doesn't linger in your body for weeks past your testosterone ?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizuno
    you all are all wrong. steriods make ur wee wee grow HUGE and it gets so big that it pops off. DUH!!!

    oh and pump a holic explains it the way i have came to understand so i think pump a holic is correct or at least more correct.
    I'm not sure I'd put a lot of faith in someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word "hypertrophy" while making fun of someone who does.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsomebody
    I'm not sure I'd put a lot of faith in someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word "hypertrophy" while making fun of someone who does.
    here here! He's banned anyway must be a troublemaker!

  38. #38
    johnsomebody's Avatar
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    If he was a fitness model like he claimed he had the brain of a ten-year-old.

  39. #39
    Ntpadude is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsomebody
    If he was a fitness model like he claimed he had the brain of a ten-year-old.
    I bet he was really that guy that injured his neck taking 15 different steroids at the same time and then lifted 250 lbs with his neck using chains screwed to a football helmet. This guy is definately motivated very similarly to the other guy to drive everyone away from the "feel good" steroids.

  40. #40
    johnsomebody's Avatar
    johnsomebody is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    Arizona
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    To answer the original question, I've got some posts of people who experienced permanent or at least longterm reduction in their natural test levels after cycling.
    Natural test levels lower after each cycle?!

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