Hcg

[juice-junky]

I have just completed a 12 week cycle of deca and test E. It has been two weeks and I have started my clomid therapy as of yesterday. My question is if I bump HCG into my system with it mess with the clomid delivering my own test levels back to normal? I am thinking of the HCG just for sexual reasons like to get my drive back. I know HCG only mimics LH levels so I was wondering if I take the clomid and the HCG the clomid will stimulate natural test production at the same time the HCG with boost my levels immediately???? What do ya think

[01dragonslayer]

You cannot run the HCG and clomid together. HCG must be ran and stopped 2-3 days before starting your clomid.

[bigbadbootydaddy]

You should of started the hcg during your last wk or 2nd last wk of your cycle and ran it until 1 wk before pct started. Make sure when you run hcg that you also use nolva, it will help to produce natural LH. Save it for your next cycle.

[juice-junky]

You should of started the hcg during your last wk or 2nd last wk of your cycle and ran it until 1 wk before pct started. Make sure when you run hcg that you also use nolva, it will help to produce natural LH. Save it for your next cycle.

what happens when u run the two together???

[JohnnyB]

Bro HCG needs to be run during the cycle, not after or down the road, it needs to be run from day 1. When running a 19-nor HCG is a must in my book and anything over 10 weeks needs it too. You never run it with PCT, you're trying to get your body to produce LH, if you're running HCG during PCT you're telling your body you have LH and doesn't need to produce more.

JohnnyB

[juice-junky]

Bro HCG needs to be run during the cycle, not after or down the road, it needs to be run from day 1. When running a 19-nor HCG is a must in my book and anything over 10 weeks needs it too. You never run it with PCT, you're trying to get your body to produce LH, if you're running HCG during PCT you're telling your body you have LH and doesn't need to produce more.

JohnnyB

could I wait on the clomid and run HCG for a week or what?

[JohnnyB]

You could, if you do go 300iu for 5 days, but get some nolva to add to your PCT. I don't like recommending this for the simple fact that people will try and use this as a recomended way of using HCG . This is an emergency situation, not the normal case, next time run it during the cycle from day 1 at 300-500iu every 3-5 days

JohnnyB

[juice-junky]

I injected 5000 iu this morning clomid I ran yesterday at 300mg I am also running proviron and nolvadex to block estrogen...... I am screwed or should I just discontinue the clomid let the 5000iu HCG run for a week and then start the clomid?

[Property of Steroid.com]

You never run it with PCT, you're trying to get your body to produce LH, if you're running HCG during PCT you're telling your body you have LH and doesn't need to produce more.

JohnnyB

Really? Never?

Incorrect. Totally incorrect.

You always take both HCG and Nolvadex during PCT, as I've said for years...

It can be argued that HCG's suppressive effect on LH levels (due to leydigs cells desensitization) and consequently endogenous testosterone is (mostly? totally?) due to to HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) into to testosterone. Nolvadex, stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place. Therefore when you run HCG as well as Nolvadex, you get the benefits of HCG without the deleterous effects on either Leydig cells or Testosterone.

Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T ser um levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2114&query_hl=2




J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

[The Baron]

Clomid will only begin to work if test levels are depressed. HCG bumps up your test levels by tricking your balls into producing some, even in the absence of LH. So obviously you must let the hcg and the test that it caused you to produce get out of your body before beginning pct. I like to take my last shot a week before pct begins.

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[ianchov]

So which method is better:

HcG while on PCT with Nolva or HcG before Pct.


Or even HCG while on cycle?

[Seattle Junk]

I say HCG on cycle to week prior of end. Then clomid thru PCT. It makes more sense.

[The Baron]

Def NOT during pct. Before pct. You can run a very low dose right through your cycle if you like, or start it when you notice testicular shrinkage, or just wait and have some with your last test shot. Don't bother starting pct until a week after your last hcg shot.

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[01dragonslayer]

I like to run my HCG mid-cycle and again right before PCT clomid.

[JohnnyB]

Thanks hooker your study proves my point.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T ser um levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization
-----------------------------------------

You don't want elevated estrogen during PCT, unless you want to be as emotional as 13 year old on her period, that might be for you but it's not for me. So if you want elevated estrogen use HCG during PCT, as far as I'm concerned that's the time you don't with it, with test levels be at a low, increased estrogen should be the last thing you'd want.

JohnnyB

[Property of Steroid.com]

Thanks hooker your study proves my point.

You don't want elevated estrogen during PCT, unless you want to be as emotional as 13 year old on her period, that might be for you but it's not for me. So if you want elevated estrogen use HCG during PCT, as far as I'm concerned that's the time you don't with it, with test levels be at a low, increased estrogen should be the last thing you'd want.

JohnnyB

No, it doesn't. I proved your "point" on estrogen? You had a point and it was on estrogen...funny....because you never even mentioned estrogen...how could it be your "point"? Your "point" was NEVER to take HCG during PCT, because it suppresses LH...remember?

You never run it with PCT, you're trying to get your body to produce LH, if you're running HCG during PCT you're telling your body you have LH and doesn't need to produce more.

I thought your "point" had to do with LH, not estrogen...

In either case, your thoughts on LH and HCG are clearly not important in light of their LH-inhibitory effects being negated by the simple addition of Nolvadex , a staple in almost any PCT anyway. In fact, HCG is a very valuable PCT aid, and will make recovery much faster, now that it's inhibitory effects can be negated with Nolvadex.

Insofar as your newly discovered concerns for estrogen levels, clearly, a Type I Aromatase Inhibitor would be sufficient to alleviate them.

[JohnnyB]

your funny, just cause I didn't mention estrogen doesn't mean you didn't prove my point. Estrogen is a bad thing and during pct it's even worst or are you a mind reader now? But by your reaction you weren't trying to help anyone, you were just trying to build your ego, sorry I popped it and used your own study to do it, that must really chap your hid. But you've never been about helping people, it's always been about you and your internet persona or should I say what you suppose that persona is. You never cease to stop showing your immaturity

JohnnyB

[Property of Steroid.com]

Nice. Personal attacks. I think the members can see who is right, and who's resorted to name calling because they've been exposed.

[Drummerboy]

hey argue fairly here, we are all trying to get the best info...

[The Baron]

I like to run my HCG mid-cycle and again right before PCT clomid.

Well, that sounds good, too.



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[JohnnyB]

Nice. Personal attacks. I think the members can see who is right, and who's resorted to name calling because they've been exposed.

Damn I think that's the first thing we agree on, the members do know, so I'll let them judge, I have no problem with that, they know more then you give them credit for

JohnnyB

[Teegunn]

Shit. Now I am confused. I thought HCG was a decent part of a PCT program along with some Clomid, but could also be used during a cycle in an emergency. I also thought you were supposed to start using HCG the last week or two of your cycle. But this thread has two completely different opinions from mods on how and when to use HCG.

[ianchov]

Yes, a little confusing...

But i think i found for myself - run from day 1 of the cycle is my recept.

peace

[JohnnyB]

Shit. Now I am confused. I thought HCG was a decent part of a PCT program along with some Clomid, but could also be used during a cycle in an emergency. I also thought you were supposed to start using HCG the last week or two of your cycle. But this thread has two completely different opinions from mods on how and when to use HCG.

There are lots of idea out there, the best in my book is to run it with the cycle at low doses. In this study, it shows estrogen(E2) reachs max levels in 24 hours, with 1 shot of 1500iu. The divided dose had no initial peak of E2.

Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
-------------------------

Here's what you're trying to do with HCG during a cycle. You're trying to keep the boys alive, this give the body one less thing to recover from. The idea of taking it at certain point in the cycle to bring the boys back or during pct, can cause spicks in E2 (as shown in both study posted in this thread), because the proponent of this suggest dose of 1000iu or more everyday or every X day. The high dose idea is old school and the Brio that brought it to the boards, all be it he's a Doc, some people don't like him and refuse to admit his protocol is the best way to use it

JohnnyB

[Seattle Junk]

Damn I think that's the first thing we agree on, the members do know, so I'll let them judge, I have no problem with that, they know more then you give them credit for

JohnnyB

C'mon, you guys are the team leaders. We hate to see the parents fighting...

[Teegunn]

There are lots of idea out there, the best in my book is to run it with the cycle at low doses. In this study, it shows estrogen(E2) reachs max levels in 24 hours, with 1 shot of 1500iu. The divided dose had no initial peak of E2.

Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).
-------------------------

Here's what you're trying to do with HCG during a cycle. You're trying to keep the boys alive, this give the body one less thing to recover from. The idea of taking it at certain point in the cycle to bring the boys back or during pct, can cause spicks in E2 (as shown in both study posted in this thread), because the proponent of this suggest dose of 1000iu or more everyday or every X day. The high dose idea is old school and the Brio that brought it to the boards, all be it he's a Doc, some people don't like him and refuse to admit his protocol is the best way to use it

JohnnyB

Sounds good. Thanks JB.

[JohnnyB]

Sounds good. Thanks JB.

No prob Bro

JohnnyB

[hatchblack]

I have to side with Johnny on this one. Estrogen during PCT is bad. Perhaps the estrogen rebound of large HCG administration could be negated or bypassed with some Ldex and Nolva but that is not really the point of HCG.

As stated, if you run long (over 10 weeks) 300-500ius E3D of HCG should keep the balls nice and full so that they are ready to spring back into action for PCT.

[goalseeker]

C'mon, you guys are the team leaders. We hate to see the parents fighting...

hes right....

reading each others debates,.... yes.. very interesting and full of valueable endless information.
reading arguements and non valueable stuff.....yuk...
heck I can go upstairs and get that live from the 'ol lady!!

[Seattle Junk]

Doesn't GH and IGF1 keeps the balls full while on AAS?

[goalseeker]

that debate was a good one though....very interesting and good reading....

[hatchblack]

tooo....much....information....!!!

I just read hooker's post on HCG and it presented some very interesting arguements for the bypass of the 17ohp interference with endegenous test production.

It is not however proven, as most of the sh*t in this sport isn't.

That being said, I would use it during cycle to keep them full and cease before PCT and have great healthy nuts to come back on line.

I guess you could low dose it throughout and just stop a couple of weeks before the end of nolva.

[The Baron]

Well, remember, bodybuilding is still more of an art than a science. There is a lot of wiggle room in our dogma!



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[hatchblack]

Well, remember, bodybuilding is still more of an art than a science. There is a lot of wiggle room in our dogma!



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-The Baron-

I need specifics g*ddamnit...!!!

[Drummerboy]

Just wanted to chime in... i have used HCG , so i will bring my experience to the table. HCG can be used BOTH during a cycle, or after a cycle (or at the end). Ive done both. they both work. the whole point of HCG usage is to get the boys to grow back. You can keep them from shrinking in the first place by using a light dose throughout cycle, like 500iu E4D. This works. Ive done it. but now, i dont want to use HCG for 10-12 weeks, as it seems useless. HCG can act fast, and i dont want to over use it. so, i use it at the end of a cycle. Find out when your last ester is going to run out of your body, and start the HCG 2 weeks before that date. I would go 500iu EOD for that 2 weeks. For me, the boys grow back that fast, after tren use (shrunk for sure). I use nolva with my HCG for its blocking effect on HCG's tendency to desensitise the testes to natural LH. I use 10-20mg ED. Now, when you start your PCT at the correct time, when your longest ester has run out of your body, your boys are better prepared to recieve natural LH, which is the point of PCT. You can continue with just nolva 20mg ED until fully recovered, which is one school of thought, or continue nolva AND start clomid therapy. I would run the nolva a little longer than the clomid in this case. An AI like Ldex is optional, i would use it if i wanted to dry up or lower excessive estro levels. I use .25 mg ED. These are all average doses. So, guys, everyone has thier preferences. Id say from HCG experience that they both can work... just find out which one is best for you.

~DB~

[JohnnyB]

When it comes to HCG , there are more then 1 way floating around. I prefer using it during the cycle. But if you feel like it should be used at wahtever time, do it, it's your body and we will have to answer to yourselves if something goes wrong.

JohnnyB

[hatchblack]

Just wanted to chime in... i have used HCG , so i will bring my experience to the table. HCG can be used BOTH during a cycle, or after a cycle (or at the end). Ive done both. they both work. the whole point of HCG usage is to get the boys to grow back. You can keep them from shrinking in the first place by using a light dose throughout cycle, like 500iu E4D. This works. Ive done it. but now, i dont want to use HCG for 10-12 weeks, as it seems useless. HCG can act fast, and i dont want to over use it. so, i use it at the end of a cycle. Find out when your last ester is going to run out of your body, and start the HCG 2 weeks before that date. I would go 500iu EOD for that 2 weeks. For me, the boys grow back that fast, after tren use (shrunk for sure). I use nolva with my HCG for its blocking effect on HCG's tendency to desensitise the testes to natural LH. I use 10-20mg ED. Now, when you start your PCT at the correct time, when your longest ester has run out of your body, your boys are better prepared to recieve natural LH, which is the point of PCT. You can continue with just nolva 20mg ED until fully recovered, which is one school of thought, or continue nolva AND start clomid therapy. I would run the nolva a little longer than the clomid in this case. An AI like Ldex is optional, i would use it if i wanted to dry up or lower excessive estro levels. I use .25 mg ED. These are all average doses. So, guys, everyone has thier preferences. Id say from HCG experience that they both can work... just find out which one is best for you.

~DB~

This is just how I had envisioned it going. Good post.

[JohnnyB]

I need specifics g*ddamnit...!!!

That was as specific as it get, this game changes as we learn more. Then you have people that hang on to the old school methods. It's human nature, believe or not we still have a flat earth society, some people won't listen to reason or facts. How do you think cults get their followings, they have a special knowledge that on one else has and don't confuse them with the facts

JohnnyB

[ianchov]

Drummerboy - very good post,bro.


BUMP!