I want to run deca in my next cycle strictly for the purpose of joint support. What would be a proper dosage to do this? It will be a test/tren cycle (bulker).
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I want to run deca in my next cycle strictly for the purpose of joint support. What would be a proper dosage to do this? It will be a test/tren cycle (bulker).
what dosages for the test and tren?
If it just for joint a low dos of 200 mg a week will work you will get low to zero gains at that dose but your joints will feel good. I wouldnt run more than 400 mg a week if your going to run it with Tren or you will be relly shut down .
Dosages are test @ 800mg/wk and tren @ 400mg/wk. What would you reccomend?Quote:
Originally Posted by chest6
I run 100 mg year round.Works perfect.No need to run more at all.
Most all the retired BBer's I know run the same dose.It's part of HRT protocol.
100-200 should be fine
[QUOTE=Pinnacle]I run 100 mg year round.Works perfect.No need to run more at all.
QUOTE]
100/week all year? are you serious?
[QUOTE=goalseeker]Yes.100mg wkly year round...Why are you shocked?I also run HGH year round as well.After one more cycle,I'll run the HGH,Deca and Test the rest of my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
kinda.. first time I heard of that... thats all....
Thanks for all the help. I will run 100mg/wk and see how that does. I just feel like I can lift heavier and harder without injury or joint pain with deca helping out.
You'll be aces with 100mg bro.Good luck on the upcoming cycle!Quote:
Originally Posted by gonnagetBIG
[QUOTE=Pinnacle]You'll be aces with 100mg bro.
I should try that. My joints start to bother me somedays.. especially on the rotator I tore about 20 years ago. With the increase in weight on this cycle, whenever I do bench it kinda acts up a bit. Man it is painful somedays.. wonder if this would help?
[QUOTE=goalseeker]I'm no spring chicken either.I'm sure it will help you bro.Give it a shot.You will be pleasantly surprised at how your joints will feel @100mgs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
think Ill try that.... thx broQuote:
Originally Posted by Pinnacle
On the same note if 100-200 is for joint lube then how much would you need to start to see musclse increase?
300-400Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck89gt5.0
Strictly for Joint Support, 100mgs/week is more than enough. My profile on deca references 2 studies done with lower doses which boosted bone mineral content and collagen production respectively. This is from the progestinic effects deca has, as well as the mild aromatization.
The "soothing" (anti-inflamatory/painkilling) effects are more difficult to explain...here's a shot though:
T helper 1 (TH1) cells secrete proinflammatory cytokines as well as promoting cell-mediated immune responses, whereas TH2 cells trigger antibody production (2). Simple enough? Sex hormones (such as progesterone, and remember, Deca is a progestin) that promote the development of a TH2 response also happen to antagonize the emergence of TH1 cells. Hence, when progesterone levels are (or the PgR, progesterone receptor) is stimulated, you'll have more anti-inflammatory cytokines floating around and less proinflammatory cytokines. Aspirin, Tylenol, and all of the over the counter anti-inflammatories are also useful as painkillers. Anti-inflammatory effects are often highly correlated with pain killing activity. What happens when women with arthritis get pregnant? Yeah, thats right, a reduction in symptoms and pain in their joints. Is this due to pregesterone and estrogen increasing during pregnancy, and the inti-inflammatory effects they bring? Yeah, probably....I'll support that leap.
If you're still with me, you now know that progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). Ergo, progesterone has anti-inflammatory action. Deca is what, boys and girls? Thats right, it's a progestin, meaning it stimulates the progesterone receptor. And thats why it alleviates joint pains. Remember that old idea that deca promotes "water-retention" in the joints, and thats why it helps your joints feel soothed? Bullshit. You just read the real reason deca helps joints. Deca actually works both as an androgen, which have the well documented ability to exert effects on corticosteroids to diminish inflamation, and it also acts as progestin to reduce inflammation.
Lets move on....
Estrogen exerts what is known as a a biphasic ( two phase) effect. At low amounts, it is proinflammatory, because it stimulates the TH1 arm of the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation. In high(er) amounts, it is actually an anti-inflamatory (2). So when you take very strong anti-estrogens (or aromatase inhibitors), you both lose water (because estrogen causes water retention) as well as get sore joints because of the proinflammatory effects you get from having such low levels of estrogen. Letrozole, which reduces blood plasma levels of estrogen due to aromatase inhibition, is the best example of this, because it is infamous for causing aching joints. Letrozole, decreases both aromatase activity (aromatase is the enzyme responsible for conversion of testosterone to estrogen as you already know) as well as (obviously) plasma levels of estrogen, and in addition reduces progesterone levels (3)....and you only need 100mcg of Letrozole to inhibit aromatase activity(4)- making it a very potent aromatase inhibitor. This is why when people take Letrozole, they claim it takes "water out of their joints" and makes them ache. Again, this is total bullshit. You now know the real reason that Letro can make your joints ache. Lowering estrogen will lower your water retention, but also take away some of your body's ability to have estrogen mediated anti-inflammatory reactions to weight training. You lose water and your joints hurt...hence...people say you lose water from your joints, and that makes them hurt. Its true that you lose subcutanous water, but it's simply not true that losing this water will make your joints hurt...it's the loss of estrogen and progesterone that is behind the aching joints here. We can also make the claim that Testosterone, can have some anti-inflamatory effects both through it's aromatization to estrogen is as well as it's effects on corticosteroids. This too, is well documented.
(Originally found on BB4L: http://www.bodybuilding4life.com/for...ead.php?t=8085 )
References:
- MacDonald PC, Madden JD, Brenner PF, Wilson JD, Siiteri PK 1979 Origin of estrogen in normal men and in women with testicular feminization. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 49:905–916
- Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
- Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5.
- J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
- Successful percutaneous dihydrotestosterone treatment of gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy: four cases and a review of the literature.
Clin Infect Dis. 2001 Sep 15;33(6):891-3. Epub 2001 Aug 10.- Androgens and the immunocompetence handicap hypothesis: unraveling direct and indirect pathways of immunosuppression in song sparrows.
Am Nat. 2004 Oct;164(4):490-505. Epub 2004 Sep 1.- Nippon Sanka Fujinka Gakkai Zasshi. 1988 Mar;40(3):331-7.
- Progesterone is not essential to the differentiative potential of mammary epithelium in the male mouse. Freeman, Topper. Endocrinology. 1978 Jul;103(1):186-92
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WHOA!.....I need to go lie down after that... LOL