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  1. #1
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Does anyone really know this answer????

    Many times I have seen the same question on the boards. That question being does anti-estrogens "HINDER" muscular gains.

    Some say "NO" while others say "YES"

    L.Rea claims one should not take anti-es until day 15 in his book "building the perfect beast" as one should let estrogen run rampant for the first two weeks to allow for an increase in androgen receptors but one study showed estrogen had no affect on androgen receptors..See what I mean????

    Obviously the extra water retention will make one look fuller and give added strength, but do anti-estrogens hinder muscle gains on a cell level?????Estrogens have been touted as having the ability to increass androgen receptor sensitivity,increase igf/gh release and add glycogen to the muscles.

    Yes I know some get high blood pressure,fat deposits,gyno and edema from having excess estrogens, but I also know of some bodybuilders who have never touched any anti-es and have not had any issues. These same guys claim their gains are better with higher estrogen levels but I also worry about the long term health of these individulas if estrogen are elevated for prolonged periods. Then you have guys like Arnold(arguably the best body builder in the world) who had never heard of anti-es during his peak..Hmm..

    I feel no one really knows if anti-es hinder muscle gains at this point because not enough studies have been done. For example; one study done by the endocrinal metab in 1985 said taking 1 mg of arimidex decreased estrogen by 50% while increasing testosterone levels 58%. However they also said only .05 mls of arimidex still decreased estrogen levels by 50% but caused "ZERO" increase in testosterone levels.

    Folks this makes no sense to me????????? Does anyone really know?? It makes one wonder doesn't it?????
    Last edited by mr.biceps58; 08-24-2005 at 11:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    Well when your estrogen levels are higher, you're able to absorb more test...right?..

  3. #3
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    I believe anti-e's should only be used to combat negative sides like gyno. A little bloating is good for size and strength you normally couldn't achieve without it. Control bloating with your diet, simple. Sodium and simple carbs should be out.

  4. #4
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_test
    Well when your estrogen levels are higher, you're able to absorb more test...right?..
    How do you figure that?? I don't understand..

  5. #5
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Junk
    I believe anti-e's should only be used to combat negative sides like gyno. A little bloating is good for size and strength you normally couldn't achieve without it. Control bloating with your diet, simple. Sodium and simple carbs should be out.

    Well isn't that prety much what Arnold did to get so big and lean? MAKES ONE WONDER IF ANTI-ES ARE HINDERING SOME???

  6. #6
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    different anti-oestrogens, play varying roles in muscle gain.

    Letrozole , although hard on libido and your lipid profile reduces water weight, and increases muscle production. Letro can increase IGF-1 over 27%. (Hooker)

    Arimidex and Aromasin reduces IGF-1 levels. Therefore it can affect muscle growth.

    In my opinion using nothing is the best option. Use an anti-e if you need the protection.

    you have guys like Arnold(arguably the best body builder in the world)
    No offence, but Arnold compared to modern bodybuilders is nothing. There are guys bigger and more cut than him with smaller waists in the Nationals.

  7. #7
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.biceps58
    Well isn't that prety much what Arnold did to get so big and lean? MAKES ONE WONDER IF ANTI-ES ARE HINDERING SOME???
    The Austrian Oak is also a genetic freak not from this world. I would assume these guys ate pretty damn well too. HIgh protein, low fat and complex carb diets. They worked out like nut cases too. Do squats till they puke. Work out 2-3X a day with lot of gear flowing thru em. Too much crap these days in our diets. Bloating and fat deposits are all diet controlled. It's not the juice making people fat it's the fast food and crap people eat on bulking cycles. Do at least 3 days a week of cardio on bulking cycles too. I remember that old school theory of not doing cardio so you don't burn muscle. BS, just drink 50 grams of whey protein after weight training and hit the trainer for 30 mins for cardio.
    Last edited by Seattle Junk; 08-24-2005 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Seattle Junk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catlovesfood
    different anti-oestrogens, play varying roles in muscle gain.

    Letrozole , although hard on libido and your lipid profile reduces water weight, and increases muscle production. Letro can increase IGF-1 over 27%. (Hooker)

    Arimidex and Aromasin reduces IGF-1 levels. Therefore it can affect muscle growth.

    In my opinion using nothing is the best option. Use an anti-e if you need the protection.



    No offence, but Arnold compared to modern bodybuilders is nothing. There are guys bigger and more cut than him with smaller waists in the Nationals.
    I would say Arnold would still win most comps now with the same drugs that are used today. He's a freak. Look at his bone structure. Look at his shoulders and rib cage. He was born to be a BB.

  9. #9
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    Yes, I think anti e's def effect gains. And here is my reasoning. In the male, even the slightest estrogen amounts produce drastic strength, and in females the slightest test amounts do the same thing. It's kind of like the whole opposites attract theory, or in this case opposites create strength. Anybody who has taken a basic anatomy and physiology course learns this. Hence, more aromitizing drugs like dbol or anadrol producing the greatest strength increases. When something becomes introduced for the purpose of keeping the estrogen levels down no wonder gains become short changed. I'm not prone to gyno, have never been, I only run anti e's for the soul purpose of keeping water down. I'll usually do either a 10mg or 20 mg tab(depending on how much gear I'm on) eod. Most guys dont do nolva eod, but I've noticed better strength this way rather than ed.

  10. #10
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    Arnold biggest flaw was his quad sweep, much too narrow for todays freakish standards

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stayinstacked
    Hence, more aromitizing drugs like dbol or anadrol producing the greatest strength increases. .

    1. anadrol doesnt aromatize
    2. you must have never heard of tren , also does NOT aromatize

  12. #12
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Junk
    The Austrian Oak is also a genetic freak not from this world. I would assume these guys ate pretty damn well too. HIgh protein, low fat and complex carb diets. They worked out like nut cases too. Do squats till they puke. Work out 2-3X a day with lot of gear flowing thru em. Too much crap these days in our diets. Bloating and fat deposits are all diet controlled. It's not the juice making people fat it's the fast food and crap people eat on bulking cycles. Do at least 3 days a week of cardio on bulking cycles too. I remember that old school theory of not doing cardio so you don't burn muscle. BS, just drink 50 grams of whey protein after weight training and hit the trainer for 30 mins for cardio.
    Now this make sense but according to L.Rea excess estrogen causes female fat deposits.

  13. #13
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by catlovesfood
    different anti-oestrogens, play varying roles in muscle gain.

    Letrozole , although hard on libido and your lipid profile reduces water weight, and increases muscle production. Letro can increase IGF-1 over 27%. (Hooker)

    Arimidex and Aromasin reduces IGF-1 levels. Therefore it can affect muscle growth.

    In my opinion using nothing is the best option. Use an anti-e if you need the protection.



    No offence, but Arnold compared to modern bodybuilders is nothing. There are guys bigger and more cut than him with smaller waists in the Nationals.
    where did you get this info???

  14. #14
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    let me just say i take .5mg a-dex ed. in the past several weeks everyone i know says "your getting frkn huge...are you on steroids ?"

  15. #15
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiler
    let me just say i take .5mg a-dex ed. in the past several weeks everyone i know says "your getting frkn huge...are you on steroids?"
    Have you tried running the same cycle without a-dex? If so what differences did you experience in muscle-strength gains?

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    There are several mechanisms at work with Aromatase Inhibitors. The first is that they reduce circulating levels of estrogen, and we know that estrogen can aid in weight gain.
    This is obvious when we compare weight gained in Steers given a non-aromatizing androgen vs/ a non-aromatizing androgen + estrogen.

    It is also common that a decrease in estrogen levels can be correlated with decrease IGF levels. Igf, as you know is crucial to growth.

    Now it gets tricky, because Type-1 Aromatase inhibitors seem to reduce IGF quite a bit, while some type-2 AI's don't, or sometimes even raise it.

    And some studies show no decrease in the anabolic environment we attempt to foster by using steroids (protein turnover rate, nitrogen retention, etc...) when an AI is introduced to the male body. Some, however, do.

    I would say that for maximum growth and avoiding injury, you need some estrogen as well as the aromatase enzyme. But I am not sure that simply adding in an AI to a cycle will always decrease gains.

    The research is less than conclusive, in my eyes.

  17. #17
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by catlovesfood
    different anti-oestrogens, play varying roles in muscle gain.

    Letrozole , although hard on libido and your lipid profile reduces water weight, and increases muscle production. Letro can increase IGF-1 over 27%. (Hooker)

    Arimidex and Aromasin reduces IGF-1 levels. Therefore it can affect muscle growth.

    In my opinion using nothing is the best option. Use an anti-e if you need the protection.



    No offence, but Arnold compared to modern bodybuilders is nothing. There are guys bigger and more cut than him with smaller waists in the Nationals.
    Arnold could hang in there with todays top competitors....Remember Arnold over-trained and did not take the drugs these boys today are using..

  18. #18
    RA's Avatar
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    If you take enough letro it will kill your cycle. So, I would have to say that anti-e hinders gains.

  19. #19
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.biceps58
    Have you tried running the same cycle without a-dex? If so what differences did you experience in muscle-strength gains?
    i run test cyp continually so when i finally added a-dex i feel i noticed a difference almost immediately. check out all the hrt sites almost all say something to the effect of...estrogen (estradiol) blocks the production AND effect of testosterone throughout the body, dampens sexuality, and increases the risk of prostate and cardiovascular diseases...

  20. #20
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    i also read in another hrt site that too much est. fills your receptors making it difficult fot test to be absorbed, ill try to find the quote

  21. #21
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    [QUOTE=stayinstacked]Yes, I think anti e's def effect gains. And here is my reasoning. In the male, even the slightest estrogen amounts produce drastic strength,
    huh? says who? is that why transvestites taking large amounts of est can kick your asss? just kiddn bro but where did you get this info? all that high est has ever done for me is make me cry like a girl at sad movies. sometimes i could watch opera and bawl like a baby

  22. #22
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    i have no scientific proof behind my logic but i believe if anti estrogens do cause less muscle gain it's not a significant enough amount that it would even be noticeable though. the bigger picture is that by running an anti estrogen it makes for far less problems than not running one. gyno, bloating, high blood pressure even if i'm not mistaken because of the bloat. anti estrogens for me have to be run in high doses to even make an effect on bloating. going to give proviron a try. got away from the initial debate but i think it's important that newbies don't think they can get away without an anti estrogen in their cycles. some people i have known did not have any bloat or effect without the anti estrogen. i was not so lucky and undereducated at the time and now will be getting gyno surgery done in the near future. not that bad but i am very gyno prone and might as well get it done before it gets worse.

  23. #23
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by hooker
    There are several mechanisms at work with Aromatase Inhibitors. The first is that they reduce circulating levels of estrogen, and we know that estrogen can aid in weight gain.
    This is obvious when we compare weight gained in Steers given a non-aromatizing androgen vs/ a non-aromatizing androgen + estrogen.

    It is also common that a decrease in estrogen levels can be correlated with decrease IGF levels. Igf, as you know is crucial to growth.

    Now it gets tricky, because Type-1 Aromatase inhibitors seem to reduce IGF quite a bit, while some type-2 AI's don't, or sometimes even raise it.

    And some studies show no decrease in the anabolic environment we attempt to foster by using steroids (protein turnover rate, nitrogen retention, etc...) when an AI is introduced to the male body. Some, however, do.

    I would say that for maximum growth and avoiding injury, you need some estrogen as well as the aromatase enzyme. But I am not sure that simply adding in an AI to a cycle will always decrease gains.

    The research is less than conclusive, in my eyes.
    hooker, We are in agreement..

  24. #24
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiler
    i also read in another hrt site that too much est. fills your receptors making it difficult fot test to be absorbed, ill try to find the quote
    I'd like to see that quote.

    Thanks.

  25. #25
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by smiler
    i run test cyp continually so when i finally added a-dex i feel i noticed a difference almost immediately. check out all the hrt sites almost all say something to the effect of...estrogen (estradiol) blocks the production AND effect of testosterone throughout the body, dampens sexuality, and increases the risk of prostate and cardiovascular diseases...
    I have read the same things you have stated. I don't the male body functions well with large amounts of stroegens.

  26. #26
    smiler is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.biceps58
    I'd like to see that quote.

    Thanks.
    trying to find which site it was on...was almost 2 yrs ago when i was reading these

  27. #27
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    I have noticed I feel like total crap (sluggish) when I don't run anti-es during my cycle..Even if it did hinder ones gains I can't see myself not using .05mls of arimidex daily because I feel so much better. I think the arimidex actually helps my train HARDER because I don't feel so sluggish from the excess estrogens.

  28. #28
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    If you take enough letro it will kill your cycle. So, I would have to say that anti-e hinders gains.

    I know of a guy who lost his sex drive while taking letro but his muscle gains were still good. GO FIGURE!

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfyEVH
    1. anadrol doesnt aromatize
    2. you must have never heard of tren, also does NOT aromatize
    Ok, and why would an androgenic drug not aromitize? Seems funny to me that the androgenic drugs are the most common cases of gyno.

  30. #30
    Big M's Avatar
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    Estrogens have been touted as having the ability to increass androgen receptor sensitivity,increase igf/gh release and add glycogen to the muscles
    I think that is correct...

    For example; one study done by the endocrinal metab in 1985 said taking 1 mg of arimidex decreased estrogen by 50% while increasing testosterone levels 58%. However they also said only .05 mls of arimidex still decreased estrogen levels by 50% but caused "ZERO" increase in testosterone levels.
    The pharmaceutical world is full of contradictions like that hate it!! You can never be sure about anything

  31. #31
    mr.biceps58 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big M
    I think that is correct...



    The pharmaceutical world is full of contradictions like that hate it!! You can never be sure about anything
    Hs anyone seen any studies done on estrogens and how it affects androgen receptor site sensitivity???

  32. #32
    supersteve Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mr.biceps58
    Hs anyone seen any studies done on estrogens and how it affects androgen receptor site sensitivity???
    I read a study recently which said estrogen blocked 80% of the DHT binding to the androgen receptor. However, after discontinuation of estrogen, or the use of tamoxifen , there was actually increased sensitivity.

    So perhaps it would make sense not to run an anti-e for the first few weeks, then add one in.

  33. #33
    supersteve Guest
    Here it is.

    Estrogen down-regulation of androgen receptors in cultured human mammary cancer cells (MCF-7)

    EP Stover, AV Krishnan and D Feldman

    Estrogens and androgens are well known to exert opposing effects in several tissues. In this study, we explored the possibility that there might be a direct antiandrogenic effect of estradiol on human breast cancer cells (MCF-7). Since the biological activity of androgens is mediated by specific androgen receptors, and because the abundance of androgen receptors in target tissues is thought to be rate limiting for androgen action, we examined whether estradiol regulates the quantity of androgen receptors in MCF-7 cells. Cells treated with 2.6 nM estradiol exhibited markedly lower levels of cytoplasmic androgen receptors, measured by [3H]5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone ([3H]DHT) binding, compared to levels in cells receiving ethanol vehicle alone. The effect was time dependent, and 6-day treatment of cells with estradiol resulted in an 80% reduction in [3H]DHT binding. Occupancy of androgen receptors by estradiol did not account for this difference. Cytosol competition studies demonstrated that the androgen receptor in MCF-7 cells possesses an approximately 125-fold lower affinity for estradiol than for DHT. In addition, tamoxifen, a nonsteroidal estrogen antagonist, blocked the estradiol effects on [3H]DHT binding. These latter studies support the hypothesis that this estradiol action is mediated by the estrogen receptor. Equilibrium binding studies indicated that the observed decrease in [3H]DHT binding after estradiol treatment was due to an absolute decrease in the number of cytoplasmic androgen receptors per cell. The estradiol-mediated reduction in androgen receptor content was dose dependent; a 50% reduction in androgen receptor number was observed after 6 days of treatment with 2.6 X 10(-11) M estradiol. Additional experiments revealed that MCF-7 cells exhibited a time-dependent increase in androgen receptor content when estradiol was withdrawn; continued estradiol treatment prevented this rise in receptor content. Moreover, androgen receptor levels began to decrease from the point when the ethanol vehicle added to the medium was replaced with 2.6 nM estradiol. In summary, estradiol treatment caused a reduction in androgen receptors, and estradiol withdrawal lead to a rise in androgen receptors. We believe that these results provide a mechanism whereby estradiol may directly antagonize androgen action. Conversely, estradiol withdrawal may potentiate androgen action by allowing androgen receptor levels to rise. This hypothesis may help explain the basis of the estrogen/androgen ratio as a predictor of sex steroid response.

  34. #34
    I_Want_Abs is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by stayinstacked
    Ok, and why would an androgenic drug not aromitize? Seems funny to me that the androgenic drugs are the most common cases of gyno.
    Trenbolones chemical structure makes it resistant to the aromatize enzyme (conversion to estrogen) thus absolutely no percentage of trenbolone will convert to estrogen. Trenbolone administration would not promote estrogenic side effects such as breast tissue growth in men (gynecomastia, bitch tits)
    -Hookers tren profile (in steroid profiles forum)

    just my .02 in this topic.....

  35. #35
    I_Want_Abs is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by stayinstacked
    Ok, and why would an androgenic drug not aromitize? Seems funny to me that the androgenic drugs are the most common cases of gyno.
    oh yeah and heres a quote from the Anadrol profile regarding it's conversion to estrogen
    Since Anadrol is derived from DHT, it can’t actually convert to estrogen (via the aromatase enzyme), and it’s not a progestin or a compound with progestenic activity…so the estrogenic (?) side effects produced by it are of a very mysterious nature. It has been speculated that perhaps it can stimulate the estrogen receptor without actually being converted to estrogen…that’s about as plausible an explanation as I’ve heard…
    - Hookers Anadrol profile (steroid profiles forum)


  36. #36
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    from my expierience, anti-e's hinder gains a little, if any at all. For example, when I take Nolva I do not seem to gain quite as much, but my muscles look harder. I think that maybe they are just causing you to lose extra water, but not real sure on this.

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