Nolva Over Clomid for Martial Artists?

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 06:31 PM

I spar in martial arts class and need to be aggressive for success (just a personal preference). Hooker says Clomid, if taken longer than 3 weeks, can make you emotional. For me, I don't think this would be most efficient for my sparring. After reading Hooker's profiles, it appears that he would use nolva over clomid for raising natural test levels for PCT. Does anyone have practical experience with this and what would you recommend? Thanks for your time and knowledge!

**eGGz** · 08-27-2005, 06:56 PM

Clomid does not make me emotional and I've ran it for 5 weeks. YMMV

**100m champ** · 08-27-2005, 07:00 PM

In some cases it makes you emotional, what you need is test for rage

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by 100m champ

In some cases it makes you emotional, what you need is test for rage

Do you think Clomid will take my natural aggressiveness away? I agree with test for on-cycle but I'm looking for clomid or nolva for PCT.

**BeerBaron** · 08-27-2005, 08:30 PM

take test

**USN DV** · 08-27-2005, 09:59 PM

I wouldn't take steroids for the goal to be more aggressive, Your just have to get in there. Don't be scared to get hit, It's just sparring.

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 10:04 PM

I'm confused why people would suggest I take test during PCT. Wouldn't that suppress me even further? I guess I didn't ask this question properly. During PCT, would clomid be a poor choice to take for a martial artist, who spares weekly, due to the fact that it can cause emotional problems? Would I be better off using nolva as a natural test booster for PCT?

**USN DV** · 08-27-2005, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by striker93

I'm confused my people would suggest I take test during PCT. Wouldn't that suppress me even further? I guess I didn't ask this question properly. During PCT, would clomid be a poor choice to take for a martial artist, who spares weekly, due to the fact that it can cause emotional problems? Would I be better off using nolva as a natural test booster for PCT?

Don't take test during your PCT(you are correct), eveyone is different. I'm on Dbol , test and EQ, and I don't have any agression. But my friend had road rage really bad on dbol. you have to PCT i've used both nolva and clomid, they are about the same.

**dirtyvegas** · 08-27-2005, 10:15 PM

Use nolvadex for your pct and why are your people telling you to use test for pct that is way incorrect totally opposite.dont listen to there advice again.

Clomid will hinder your eye sight and turn your emotions like a 13yr ol girl, deffinatly not somthing you want to feel for fighting.

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by USN DV

Don't take test during your PCT(you are correct), eveyone is different. I'm on Dbol, test and EQ, and I don't have any agression. But my friend had road rage really bad on dbol. you have to PCT i've used both nolva and clomid, they are about the same.

When you used clomid, did you notice any emotional (depressed, etc.) problems. Members have warned me that this could occur after 3 weeks.

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by dirtyvegas

Use nolvadex for your pct and why are your people telling you to use test for pct that is way incorrect totally opposite.dont listen to there advice again.

Look at the third and fifth reponse. I'm guessing they misunderstood my question or I worded it improperly. Anyway, thanks dirtyvegas. I've read what Hooker recommended but what doses did you use for PCT?

**USN DV** · 08-27-2005, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by striker93

When you used clomid, did you notice any emotional (depressed, etc.) problems. Members have warned me that this could occur after 3 weeks.

no, but I only ran it for 3 weeks

**dirtyvegas** · 08-27-2005, 10:18 PM

20mg ED..4 weeks

**MMA** · 08-27-2005, 10:37 PM

i still spar like an animal on clomid. however the coaches criticism afterwards makes me want to run into the locker room and cry

you will be a little more sensitive (think PMS), but it's not that noticeable with intelligent dosing. if you have a problem, just keep lowering the doosage until the sides are doable.

there is a big movement lately to use nolva for PCT. it definitely has less sides. if it is as powerful as a natural test booster, this would make sense.

**Papi93** · 08-27-2005, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

i still spar like an animal on clomid. however the coaches criticism afterwards makes me want to run into the locker room and cry

you will be a little more sensitive (think PMS), but it's not that noticeable with intelligent dosing. if you have a problem, just keep lowering the doosage until the sides are doable.

there is a big movement lately to use nolva for PCT. it definitely has less sides. if it is as powerful as a natural test booster, this would make sense.

Will you be trying Nolva or are you sticking to Clomid as a test booster for PCT? Thanks for the excellent post!

**Blackfoot PT** · 08-28-2005, 02:55 AM

Here's a helpful suggestion. If you're worried about your performance, you could just take a three week sabbatical from sparing until you're off clomid. Come back stronger. Just don't tell anyone you've spent the last three weeks cuddling with your girlfriend watching chick-flicks. LOL

**BeerBaron** · 08-28-2005, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by striker93

I'm confused why people would suggest I take test during PCT. Wouldn't that suppress me even further? I guess I didn't ask this question properly. During PCT, would clomid be a poor choice to take for a martial artist, who spares weekly, due to the fact that it can cause emotional problems? Would I be better off using nolva as a natural test booster for PCT?

lol sorry bro i misread your shit. My bad!

**TheMudMan** · 08-28-2005, 10:20 AM

I agree wit the other guys I have ran clomid for more than 4 weeks and have not once had emotional. If you're someone that is normally emotional then I can see maybe clomid causing it to be more of a problem.

**Papi93** · 08-28-2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

I agree wit the other guys I have ran clomid for more than 4 weeks and have not once had emotional. If you're someone that is normally emotional then I can see maybe clomid causing it to be more of a problem.

Mudman, do believe clomid is superior to nolva for restoring natural test levels and minor testicular atrophy? Thanks for the reply!

**magicstick2003** · 08-28-2005, 02:24 PM

your supposed to take both in PCT bro. Clomid is more effective in restarting your own HPTA after being suppressed for long periods of time, i suppose you could go nolva only for PCT but i think that would be a poor choice as it would probaby take much longer and thus you would lose many gains (im not even sure nolva restarts everything since it is an atrificial estrogen) .
I've used clomid bbefore for pct and didn;t notice much emotionally but i guess everyone is different. you mentions running for more then 3 weeks is a bad idea, but whenever i do PCT i only go for about 3 weeks, day 1 300mg then 2-11 100 then 11-21 50 which is only 3 weeks. Personally i tink you will be just fine using the clomid.

you could try throwing in some tongat ali along with your PCT.

**dirtyvegas** · 08-28-2005, 04:26 PM

Nolva vs. Clomid for PCT

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It seems like everyday questions concerning PCT pop up, and weather one should use either Clomid or nolva or a combo of both. I hope that this article written by BigCat may help to clear up some misconceptions.

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-

**dirtyvegas** · 08-28-2005, 04:26 PM

The best way to use HCG is dr.swales protocol and that is take 250-500iu´s 2x weeks throughout the whole cycle i can post it for you i would trust him because he is a real HRT doctor:My PCT Protocol

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Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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**MMA** · 08-28-2005, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by magicstick2003

your supposed to take both in PCT bro. Clomid is more effective in restarting your own HPTA after being suppressed for long periods of time, i suppose you could go nolva only for PCT but i think that would be a poor choice as it would probaby take much longer and thus you would lose many gains (im not even sure nolva restarts everything since it is an atrificial estrogen) .
I've used clomid bbefore for pct and didn;t notice much emotionally but i guess everyone is different. you mentions running for more then 3 weeks is a bad idea, but whenever i do PCT i only go for about 3 weeks, day 1 300mg then 2-11 100 then 11-21 50 which is only 3 weeks. Personally i tink you will be just fine using the clomid.

you could try throwing in some tongat ali along with your PCT.

i have some questions about using tongkat or trib in PCT. yes, you FEEL better, but has your HPTA truly recovered? if the mechanism by which these work is by mimicking LH to stimulate your testes, you're not really fixing your HPTA, just masking the problem with artificial stimulation of the testes. this has the same problems as HCG - yes, your balls get bigger, and they start making test, but as soon as you stop taking it, you're shut down again, even worse.

does anyone know for sure the exact mechanism behind tongkat and trib?

**magicstick2003** · 08-28-2005, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

i have some questions about using tongkat or trib in PCT. yes, you FEEL better, but has your HPTA truly recovered? if the mechanism by which these work is by mimicking LH to stimulate your testes, you're not really fixing your HPTA, just masking the problem with artificial stimulation of the testes. this has the same problems as HCG - yes, your balls get bigger, and they start making test, but as soon as you stop taking it, you're shut down again, even worse.

does anyone know for sure the exact mechanism behind tongkat and trib?

good point never thoguht of that. I merely suggested it though i think nolva and clomid would be the way to go. i personally have never used tongat but i always see people using it, but you do raise a good question.

**TheMudMan** · 08-28-2005, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by MMA

i have some questions about using tongkat or trib in PCT. yes, you FEEL better, but has your HPTA truly recovered? if the mechanism by which these work is by mimicking LH to stimulate your testes, you're not really fixing your HPTA, just masking the problem with artificial stimulation of the testes. this has the same problems as HCG - yes, your balls get bigger, and they start making test, but as soon as you stop taking it, you're shut down again, even worse.

does anyone know for sure the exact mechanism behind tongkat and trib?

Neither Tribulus or Tonkat mimics LH. Both will help raise LH levels naturally. Also, because it raises natural production of the hormone there's no shutting down.

**TheMudMan** · 08-28-2005, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by striker93

Mudman, do believe clomid is superior to nolva for restoring natural test levels and minor testicular atrophy? Thanks for the reply!

I'm a firm believer in using Clomid for the main protocol for PCT and the use of Nolva and arimidex to help support PCT. But this doesn't make it the only way to run it. A lot can get a way with 40mg of Nolvadex durring PCT and recover fine.