Cycle - nolva question

[Pac]

Hi. I'm starting on a 12 week cycle with Deca and Enanthate . I got Clomid for pct at the end of the cycle, and also enough Nolva (10mg every day) for 12 weeks. But someone wrote that if you take 10mg nolva every day trough your whole cycle will lower your gains. true?

Test Enanthate - 500mg/week (250mg monday, 250mg thursday)
Deca - 300mg/week

[TheMudMan]

Hi. I'm starting on a 12 week cycle with Deca and Enanthate . I got Clomid for pct at the end of the cycle, and also enough Nolva (10mg every day) for 12 weeks. But someone wrote that if you take 10mg nolva every day trough your whole cycle will lower your gains. true?

Test Enanthate - 500mg/week (250mg monday, 250mg thursday)
Deca - 300mg/week

Debatable............ Dan Duchaine stated that nolva will reduce IGF levels years ago....... but there are many (I use it) that run nolva and make great gains. Even if it did reduce your gains slightly I would rather that then gyno.

[Pac]

Yeah, you're right. Thanks.

[CRUISECONTROL]

Debatable............ Dan Duchaine stated that nolva will reduce IGF levels years ago....... but there are many (I use it) that run nolva and make great gains. Even if it did reduce your gains slightly I would rather that then gyno.

I agree with MudMan.......... I would also use nolve at 20mg per day during pct and not just clomid

[ODC0717]

I'd rather use nolva and trade a few lbs of water then not use nolva and have man boobies. Personally, why even risk gyno. I'd use it and be done with it. At least you know you're using some kind of protection against gyno.

[ludakris9]

I actually would rather loss a little gains than get gyno also. anyone who has taken nolva through out their cycle have you lost any gains??

[Pac]

I would also use nolve at 20mg per day during pct and not just clomid

So it wont work well with only Clomid for pct? Maybe someone could tell me more about using nolva during pct. 3 weeks after my last Deca injection i will start with Clomid for total 3 weeks. So i should start taking nolva 20mg's ed during those 3 weeks i'm on clomid?

[Pac]

.....?

[Pac]

[big'r]

Hi. I'm starting on a 12 week cycle with Deca and Enanthate . I got Clomid for pct at the end of the cycle, and also enough Nolva (10mg every day) for 12 weeks. But someone wrote that if you take 10mg nolva every day trough your whole cycle will lower your gains. true?

Test Enanthate - 500mg/week (250mg monday, 250mg thursday)
Deca - 300mg/week

Agree it's debatable. The theory behind this is that estrogen will help feed muscle cells and therefore blocking estrogen will possibly lower gains.

Nolvadex during your cycle will partially protect you from some - not so cute - AAS sides (cholesterol, axis, gyno, water retention). I think 20 mg/day should be sufficient.

Plus when you start you PCT, nolvadex will bring back natural testosterone production whereas clomid will not.

[Powerlift1]

wait I thought that clomid will bring back your natural test to norm

[bignatt]

If it hinders your gains.....its not anything that you would notice i guarentee that you are also keeping your lipid profile in check while taking nolva through cycle its a wise idea like i said before your not going to put on 5 more lbs if you dont take nolva throughout your cycle

[chest6]

Plus when you start you PCT, nolvadex will bring back natural testosterone production whereas clomid will not.

whoaa..where did u get this info from?

[big'r]

whoaa..where did u get this info from?

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

SOURCE: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

[bignatt]

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.



The Estrogen Clomid


The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



Conclusion


To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

bottom line is you need either one of them for postcycle therapy ideally both.like he said Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money.
oc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3

[big'r]

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

[bignatt]

right but clomid still works at increasing natural test levels even though it decreases lh response you said clomid does not work yet it does its just not a better choice of the 2

[big'r]

right but clomid still works at increasing natural test levels even though it decreases lh response you said clomid does not work yet it does its just not a better choice of the 2

I do not see any reference.

[bignatt]

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone /estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels