"Gear Truisms" Great Post from AF

I don't agree with all the points but some are very, very good (esp. points 10-15).

The link to the original thread is:

http://anabolicfitness.infopop.net/2...3&m=5753025315

----------------------------------- The Post -------------------------

I was on another board reading the many posts by people that really don't understand some of the basic truisms of AS use and decided to write a few of these ALMOST universal "isms" down.

1. The more gear you do the more you grow. Sorry I know many of you didn't want to hear that but it's a fact. While going from 500 mgs a week to 1000 may not double your gains it will increase them (assuming training and nutrition are in order) and going from a gram to 2 grams a week will again probably not double your gains but again will increase them.

2. Something happens when mega-dosing (2+ grams a week) that simply does not occur at lower doses. Magic starts!

3. For growth heavy androgens are the way to go for 80% of trainees. This means a test base with fina, d-ball, adrol, halo, or EQ. Primo, deca winny etc have their uses but NEVER supply the bang for the buck of the heavy hitters and never equate to the growth of the big-boys. If you can't grow on test, tren, and d-ball take up bowling, you ain't gonna grow. Quit searching for exotic roids that you think will somehow catapult you to the next level. The basics are where it's at. The only thing that grows better on the light anabolics is your suppliers wallet!

4. Shots should NOT hurt, or hurt VERY LITTLE! If the mg per ml ratio is correct for the gear/ester a shot should not be painful and should not cause swelling. ALL common gear (in oil, water based suspensions are a different animal) flows absolutely fine through a 25 gauge pin and if you can give me one reason to use anything else I would be stupefied! It is NOT the amount of oil that causes pain, it is the solvent content. MORE IS NOT BETTER!

5. MANY, MANY people are simply not bothered by est related sides. I see posts all the time by people that have just always assumed they had to use anti-e's and have never even done a cycle without them. If you are not sure you should certainly have them on hand in case, and they should always be used post-cycle but why use them if they are not needed? I have NEVER used anti-e's during a cycle even when doing 3 grams a week test. I have NEVER had any est related problem. Even when doing synovex with the est left in. Probably 80% of people do need anti-e protection but if you don't need it why are you doing it? All anti-e's reduce the anabolic effects of gear to some degree.

6. Doing gear does NOT stop overtraining from occurring, it greatly reduces its effects but EVERYONE still has a point (volume/frequency) at which overtraining occurs. THE BIGGEST SINGLE REASON PEOPLE DO NOT GROW IS THEY OVERTRAIN, PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION! I always suggest doing a routine that someone knows they can grow on when not juicing then the gear will amplify the training results. Most people overtrain and don't grow optimally or at all.

7. After your first couple of cycles each subsequent cycle has diminishing returns. You lose a large percentage of your gains post cycle. Don't tell me you keep all or most of your gains. If it worked that way the average guy starting out at 170 that gained 20 lbs each cycle and kept 15 would only need to do 6 cycles spread out over two years to be a 260 lb FREAK. It don't work that way sorry!

8. The big boys (competitive Bodybuilders and powerlifters) generally stay on year round. I know many of you didn't want to hear this.....sorry! That is how they avoid the weight yo-yo's and consistently go up.

9. The toxicity of orals is SEVERELY OVERSTATED. I have never talked to or exchanged information with someone that actually had blood-work done while on that still thought they were toxic. The people that will tell you how poison they are have NEVER been tested while doing them. I have done d-ball for over a year strait at 75+ mgs per day while being tested. No problems. They should still be used cautiously but until you have had blood-work done you have no idea how they will effect you. Nonetheless people recommending only using them for 4 weeks are fucking clueless!

10. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH SIZE AND STRENGT YOU SHOULD/WILL GAIN ON A CYCLE. QUIT ASKING!

11. NO ONE CAN PREDICT WHAT SIDE EFFECTS YOU WILL INCUR, QUIT ASKING!

12. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOU WILL LOSE POST-CYCLE, QUIT ASKING.

13. All these things can only be learned in retrospect AFTER you have tried. Your individual metabolism is unique onto itself. You will never know until you try.

14. All AS work best in a calorie and macro/micro nutrient overabundance environment. If you are a 180-225 lb lifter and are not getting at least 300-350 grams of protein EVERY DAY quit bitching that your not growing. If you are 225 and above you need 350-400+ grams a day if you are training heavy. Step up to the dinner plate or go home.

15. Losing bodyfat while gaining muscle is not an optimal situation. MANY can pull it off, most people fall flat on their face attempting it. Add mass then cut. They should be separate phases.

More to follow.....

Iron Addict

I definitely would contend some of the stuff he is saying, he seems to take AAS a little too lightly imo. But good post none-the-less!

Wow Ajax, :clapping: thanks for that....interesting read there.

Saying "The more gear you do the more you grow" IMO encourages the wrong attitude in new users. I don't like it one bit. I think he makes some good points but a few of his points would lead a new user astray

Knowledge is power...read, study, and learn everything that you can before making your decision to use. More importantly though... listen to your own body.

awesome read

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RON
Saying "The more gear you do the more you grow" IMO encourages the wrong attitude in new users. I don't like it one bit. I think he makes some good points but a few of his points would lead a new user astray

---

Ron I see what you mean. I as a novice thought he was great not knowing that if I did a lot the 1st time I may be overdosing myself ?

It could screw someone up a bit I see what you mean.

Ron I totally agree with what your sayin. I'm a newbie and the idea of 75+ mgs per day d-bol just sound a little fishy not to mention scary. This kind of attitude will have evey kid in the jym stickin 1000mg of test in their ass in the first cycle. ALthough he does make some good points about personal effects on a person to person bases.

Very interesting Ajax...we need to keep this bumped IMO

so here it goes.....BUMP

Peace

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Redneck
Ron I totally agree with what your sayin. I'm a newbie and the idea of 75+ mgs per day d-bol just sound a little fishy not to mention scary.

---

No some people do that. I used 50 my last cycle and Im not really an advanced anabolic user yet. 2 g of test though? I know its done but do new guys really need to know that people take that much or do they need to be told that the more you take the bigger you get? I just think it puts bad ideas in their head. Just my .02

Still, a good read don't get me wrong. I just want to make sure no one gets the wrong idea.

Now I think that is a real bad attitude to have... 2000mg test/week ??

There comes a stage where growth is optimised in relation to sides. When you start over this optimised amount, the growth start to taper off and the SIDES KEEP ON INCREASING!!!

I believe in functional gear taking. Not fucking up my body. For god sake I am not a Pro BB. And unless you are,.. dont even look at those types of dosages.

Remember Arnold... he took hardly any gear, and he LOOKED AWSOME. Lets be realistic people. When watching an interview of Arnold just this week, the reporter asked him weather he regreted taking steriods. HE SAID NO... and his reasoning ? He said they took such small amounts compaired to today, that they had no real sides.

IMO... I want to live to be old, yeah I want to look good. But where do you draw the line? Perhaps a bit of Self-Esteem work is in need? JMO

Wonder what TNT has to say about all this??

Peace.

I have done test twice. One at 200mgs a week and another at 400mgs a week. I have always heard that you need to take at least 600mgs a week to get anything out of it. I always grew and achieved good results but in the back of my mind, I wondered if I was taking enough. This post just make me question it more. What do you guys think. I know everyone is different but has anyone seen more growth from a higher amount of was it about the same
Thanks

A lot of the stuff is pretty extreme, but I did like this part:

Quote:

---

10. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH SIZE AND STRENGTH YOU SHOULD/WILL GAIN ON A CYCLE. QUIT ASKING!

11. NO ONE CAN PREDICT WHAT SIDE EFFECTS YOU WILL INCUR, QUIT ASKING!

12. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOU WILL LOSE POST-CYCLE, QUIT ASKING.

---

I hear what everyone is saying, but assuming we are all adults here and will make our own decisions and be accountable to only ourselves, how can one argue with "the more test you take, the more you will grow"? He's not saying it's safe for you, or especially a newbie, but the fact of matter seems to be correct. I have read many posts saying "I should have done more on my last cycle", but I haven't read one yet that says "I did too much on my cycle". Just my observation.

peace,

ttgb

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Ajax
A lot of the stuff is pretty extreme, but I did like this part:

---

I agree with you on that one. IT is very individual. You might get bitchies, while I might get hairy. lol...

Hopefully we get none off either.

wow. quite a post. I agree with Ron and the guys who say that this could lead to ppl making unhealthy assumptions from reading that (such as 2 grams/wk, etc..) however I did find it informative, but a bit too generalized and reckless for me. No flame to ajax of course, and thanks for the post, but some ppl respond differently to AAS than others... safety first...

I don't care what anyone says, if I ever cycle it will not include the big androgenics. There are some other threads on this but for a first cycle, I would never do over 200mg/week because I have no idea how my body is going to respond.. and I'm not looking to compete or anything, just might want to get a boost past my potential (if I ever do try a cycle once again.)

Excellent read!

B
U
M
P

...and I would also like to hear TNTs thoughts on this one...

I would agree with a majority of what you write, but scientifically not all you say is not viable. If you want proof there is a lot of research out there. Novices dont get the wrong idea here, gear does have many side effects, un-thought-of consequences, and serious risks to consider. Besdies the fact there are many positives as well.
Here is some proof!

TITLE
Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats.

ABSTRACT
Stanozolol (ST) is a 17alpha-alkyl anabolic-androgenic steroid (17alpha-AAS) often misused by athletes and bodybuilders. The use of anabolic-steroids by sportsmen and teenagers has increased dramatically, thus raising the question about their hepatotoxicity, specially those such as ST which are orally administered. Previously, we have reported diverse in vivo effects exerted by this steroid and published the existence of a highly specific ST-binding site in male rat liver microsomes. The existence of this binding site, the reported hepatic effects exerted in humans, and the very limited information about its potential hepatotoxicity led us to treat adult male rats acutely and chronically with ST and study different parameters that could indicate liver damage: serum levels of transaminases, concentration of monooxygenase enzymes in liver, liver membrane lipid peroxidation products, liver histopathology, and cell cycle/ploidy status of liver cells. In our study, no changes in serum transaminases or lipid peroxidation levels were obtained. However, acute stanozolol treatment significantly decreased the levels of cytochrome P450 (Cyt. P450) and cytochrome b5 (Cyt. b5) during the first 48 h of treatment, while subsequently, at 72 and 96 h, these microsomal enzymes underwent a significant increase in their levels. In sharp contrast with this response to acute treatment, the content of these two enzymes during chronic treatment showed an important decrease. Interestingly, acutely and chronically ST-treated livers showed slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes. Flow cytometric analysis demonstrated that both acute and chronic ST treatment were capable of increasing the percentage of S-phase fraction (%SPF) of liver cells. These findings taken together clearly show that this steroid is capable of altering the liver capacity for metabolizing xenobiotics and indicate that high doses of ST could exert a proliferative effect on liver cells. Such data should be considered in risk evaluations for this compound.

SUMMARY (IMO): oral androgenic/anabolic sterioids can potentially change the configuration of important enzymes in the liver and allow the liver to enlarge.

TITLE
Effect of growth hormone on hepatic energy metabolism in normal rabbit liver.

ABSTRACT
Growth hormone (GH), which is well known as an anabolic agent in systemic protein metabolism but has catabolic effects on the carbohydrate metabolism in the liver, was administered to normal rabbit to investigate its effects on the hepatic energy metabolism. The changes in arterial ketone body ratio (AKBR:acetoacetate/3-hydroxybutyrate), which reflects the hepatic mitochondrial redox state ((NAD+)/(NADH)), after GH injection was studied as an indicator of the hepatic energy metabolism. GH was administered to normal rabbit at the doses of 50 mu-g/kg (GH-50 group), 100 mu-g/kg (GH-100 group) and 200 mu-g/kg (GH-200 group) by intravenous bolus injection. In the GH-50, GH-100 and GH-200 groups, AKBR decreased significantly from 1.40 +- 0.09 to 0.94 +- 0.05, from 1.19 +- 0.11 to 0.83 +- 0.14, and from 1.19 +- 0.08 to 0.71 +-0.15 at 90 min, respectively. The energy charge of the liver decreased significantly 90 min after 200 mu-g/kg GH injection from 0.872 +- 0.003 to 0.836 +- 0.012 (p lt 0.05). These results suggest that GH is associated with the deterioration of the hepatic energy metabolism, and that the administration of GH should be carefully weighed up in cases of damaged liver.

SUMMARY (IMO): this ones speaks for itself.

My med school library has tons of info. I just want people to be 100% fully, scientifically educated, so they make the right choices for themselves. There are risks.
Good luck
MM

ajax, sorry didnt realize you didnt write it until now, i dont agree either, again ... my info is above..
peace
MM

For new people reading these points.remember this is more for folks that have been cycling for awhile. If you take to many androgens on your first or second cycle you could royaly F(&k youself up. Its going to be kind of hard to get those girls on the beach to talk to you when you have a nice set of deca titties. stick to the guidlines of the people that have been doing this for awhile.

So here I was, meditating on a mountaintop, minding my own business, when I was summoned to add to the pontifications. :D Since I was asked to comment, let me go right to the original thread. I usually don't reprint whole posts, but to save y'all time from having to scan your screen up and down, I'll put the original in small italics . . .

1. The more gear you do the more you grow. Sorry I know many of you didn't want to hear that but it's a fact. While going from 500 mgs a week to 1000 may not double your gains it will increase them (assuming training and nutrition are in order) and going from a gram to 2 grams a week will again probably not double your gains but again will increase them.

Nonsense. Everything you do should be based on your goals and objectives. And the qualities of every drug's measurement is different. The numbers used here would appear to suggest testosterone. And different people will benefit more from different quantities. For some, 100 mg. a week will be enough, for others it will be more. I can think of few cases in which doses of 1,000 mg. per week will do any good, and lots of instances where it will do harm.

2. Something happens when mega-dosing (2+ grams a week) that simply does not occur at lower doses. Magic starts!

Something else can happen - you may die. (By the way, for newbies, 2 grams = 2,000 mg.) If I had a warped sense of humor, I would suggest that the writer is a source who simply wants to sell more gear. Because that's the type of idiotic statement that can do a lot of harm. The only thing that mega-dosing anything will do is whack your system out. In some cases, it will be reversible, in others it will not.

3. For growth heavy androgens are the way to go for 80% of trainees. This means a test base with fina, d-ball, adrol, halo, or EQ. Primo, deca winny etc have their uses but NEVER supply the bang for the buck of the heavy hitters and never equate to the growth of the big-boys. If you can't grow on test, tren, and d-ball take up bowling, you ain't gonna grow. Quit searching for exotic roids that you think will somehow catapult you to the next level. The basics are where it's at. The only thing that grows better on the light anabolics is your suppliers wallet!

I agree with the notion that the basics are where it's at, but who ever said that you have to mega-stack the basics? Some people will see gains on a test-only cycle, others on a deca-only cycle (even if your sex life goes down the tubes; but even that does not happen to everyone).

Ladies and germs, using AS is not a matter of doing more gear to avoid the appearance of wimping out. If some jerk gets his jollies by shooting 1,000 mg. of something when you were planning to do only 100-200 mg., then heed well the words of the great philosopher Robin Williams, "Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck." Doing AS is not a matter of simply doing as much as the next guy - it's a matter of doing what is right, both in terms of what you take and how much, for you.

4. Shots should NOT hurt, or hurt VERY LITTLE! If the mg per ml ratio is correct for the gear/ester a shot should not be painful and should not cause swelling. ALL common gear (in oil, water based suspensions are a different animal) flows absolutely fine through a 25 gauge pin and if you can give me one reason to use anything else I would be stupefied! It is NOT the amount of oil that causes pain, it is the solvent content. MORE IS NOT BETTER!

Let me see if I understand this . . . The guy suggests that you not be a wimp but should inject everything in the drug store, then says that you shouldn't use anything larger than a 25 g. pin? :D

Needle size, like anything else, is a matter of preference. I use a 22 g. 1-1/2" for glutes, a 23 g. 1" for delts, and a 25 g. 1" for quads. That happens to be my preference. If you prefer to use something different, go for it, and don't let some fool without knowledge pressure you to do anything with which you are not comfortable. Use your natural intelligence - don't be a dumb weight jock when you can be a smart weight jock.

Indeed, shots should not hurt, but some shots will hurt. There are many variables, ranging from the purity of the gear to the amount of alcohol in the shot to the size of the needle to the number of cc's you are injecting in one site. Sure, it's more effective and less painful to shoot test that is 200 mg. per ml than 100 mg. per ml, but that's not the only factor.

5. MANY, MANY people are simply not bothered by est related sides. I see posts all the time by people that have just always assumed they had to use anti-e's and have never even done a cycle without them. If you are not sure you should certainly have them on hand in case, and they should always be used post-cycle but why use them if they are not needed? I have NEVER used anti-e's during a cycle even when doing 3 grams a week test. I have NEVER had any est related problem. Even when doing synovex with the est left in. Probably 80% of people do need anti-e protection but if you don't need it why are you doing it? All anti-e's reduce the anabolic effects of gear to some degree.

I agree with him on the essential point he makes with regard to anti-e's. People tend to be too paranoid when it comes to issues like gyno - most guys will not experience this at all (which means that I do disagree with his estimate of 80% of guys needing it). But most does not mean all, and some people will experience it. If you do, treat it. If not, don't bother popping Nolvadex or Arimidex when you don't need it.

What I think is more disconcerting is the notion that this dude is claiming to shoot 3,000 mg. of test per week. This is not a man who gives sensible advice.

6. Doing gear does NOT stop overtraining from occurring, it greatly reduces its effects but EVERYONE still has a point (volume/frequency) at which overtraining occurs. THE BIGGEST SINGLE REASON PEOPLE DO NOT GROW IS THEY OVERTRAIN, PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION! I always suggest doing a routine that someone knows they can grow on when not juicing then the gear will amplify the training results. Most people overtrain and don't grow optimally or at all.

He's right. This has nothing to do with steroids intrinsically. But be careful about reading anythng that says, "END OF DISCUSSION!" This is something that comes from someone who is pontificating for the sake of hearing his own voice. There should never be an end to any discussion.

The issue of overtraining is, indeed, relevant. That's why we don't work the same muscle groups on consecutive days - muscles need to rest before they are stressed again. But the biggest single reason that someone doesn't grow is that he has hit a plateau, regardless of the amount of training, and that happens to everyone - you may or may not be able to kick the process again. When it happens, your body is trying to tell you something. Listen to your body.

7. After your first couple of cycles each subsequent cycle has diminishing returns. You lose a large percentage of your gains post cycle. Don't tell me you keep all or most of your gains. If it worked that way the average guy starting out at 170 that gained 20 lbs each cycle and kept 15 would only need to do 6 cycles spread out over two years to be a 260 lb FREAK. It don't work that way sorry!

Again, the author seems to miss the point that each person is an individual. Some people will keep their gains, others will not. Moreover, if subsequent cycles do not seem as effective as earlier cycles, there can be a variety of factors involved.

8. The big boys (competitive Bodybuilders and powerlifters) generally stay on year round. I know many of you didn't want to hear this.....sorry! That is how they avoid the weight yo-yo's and consistently go up.

I think it's important to realize that everyone has plateaus, regardless of the direction in which they occur. In other words, people trying to lose weight will cease to lose at some point, and people who want to bulk will reach their maximum at some point. We may or may not be able to transcend that plateau.

Some people do stay on year round, but they are not in the majority in any way. Moreover, those who do stay on year round are still going to hit a plateau. In my opinion, the only justification for staying on year round is for people who do AS for medical reasons.

9. The toxicity of orals is SEVERELY OVERSTATED. I have never talked to or exchanged information with someone that actually had blood-work done while on that still thought they were toxic. The people that will tell you how poison they are have NEVER been tested while doing them. I have done d-ball for over a year strait at 75+ mgs per day while being tested. No problems. They should still be used cautiously but until you have had blood-work done you have no idea how they will effect you. Nonetheless people recommending only using them for 4 weeks are fucking clueless!

This notion is downright dangerous. I've said this before, but will repeat it again: If there is a 1% of 1% instance of medical sequelae (consequences) and they happen to you, then the incidence to you has become 100%.

It is a generally accepted notion in medicine that oral anabolics are more potentially toxic than injectables, which is why physicians in the United States will generally not prescribe oral testosterone.

A few years ago, there was a piece in American History magazine called "Kung Fu Kerosene Drinking." It addressed the habit of some kung fu fighters to drink a cup of kerosene each month. Why? Simply to prove that they could. The theory is based on the notion of survival of the fittest and has been expressed in many ways over the years, such as the Mayans and their coffee enemas. The idea that we should ignore the potential side effects of oral AS when we have safer delivery methods available is absurd, especially when we're told that to play it safe is "fucking clueless."

10. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH SIZE AND STRENGT YOU SHOULD/WILL GAIN ON A CYCLE. QUIT ASKING!

11. NO ONE CAN PREDICT WHAT SIDE EFFECTS YOU WILL INCUR, QUIT ASKING!

12. NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW MUCH YOU WILL LOSE POST-CYCLE, QUIT ASKING.

The intrinsic statements in #10-13 are correct. But never quit asking. To use steroids intelligently, you should never hesitate to ask anything.

13. All these things can only be learned in retrospect AFTER you have tried. Your individual metabolism is unique onto itself. You will never know until you try.

If this dude is shooting 3,000 mg. of test a week, he has obviously not learned much. What he is doing is playing Russian Roulette, and that is not what the intelligent use of AS is about.

14. All AS work best in a calorie and macro/micro nutrient overabundance environment. If you are a 180-225 lb lifter and are not getting at least 300-350 grams of protein EVERY DAY quit bitching that your not growing. If you are 225 and above you need 350-400+ grams a day if you are training heavy. Step up to the dinner plate or go home.

Bullshit. Just ask some of the young guys who have recently posted here at A.R. about elevated liver and kidney readings. You can get too much of a good thing, and protein is one of them.

15. Losing bodyfat while gaining muscle is not an optimal situation. MANY can pull it off, most people fall flat on their face attempting it. Add mass then cut. They should be separate phases.

That's news to me. In some cases, such as clinical obesity, I agree that they should be separate phases - however I reverse them: cut, then add mass, not vice versa.

At the same time, remember that some anabolics have the effect of reversing the ratio of body fat to lean muscle mass. You may not change the number of pounds when you stand on a scale, but you can change the nature of that number to increase your lean muscle mass while decreasing your body fat. That's why some guys will be clinically obese at 225 pounds, while others can carry that weight as muscle.

As always, one has to look at the big picture: anabolic steroids do not stand on their own, but work in conjunction with a solid exercise and eating routine. And our pontificator has not done that.

More to follow.....

Another frightening notion.

Let me close this out briefly (if you can imagine me doing such a thing). There is no such thing as 10% pregnant. (In other words, when someone is wrong that much of the time, he is not a reliable authority.) Don't listen to some idiot that does not document his statements with medical fact, regardless of your age or condition. Don't listen to people who pontificate, but check out their statements one by one, and do what is best for you. Do use AS sensibly: use them right, and reap the benefits; use them wrong, and reap the consequences. And realize that no one is right 100% of the time - sometimes we learn by our mistakes, but you won't have much of a chance to learn if you're shooting 3,000 mg. of anything per week.

Educating yourself about anabolics and how to use them in an informed manner is not a cocksmanship game. And for those who presume to speak with knowledge, it's not a matter of foisting your own opinion upon others and calling those who disagree with you "fucking clueless." Be careful of anyone who claims to know it all, or who claims that his or her method of doing things will work for everyone.

Just as there is a diversity in the type of people who use AS, there is a diversity of opinion in how they should best be used. We can acknowledge that - and respect it - without coming off as mindless jocks. "Fucking clueless," indeed... :D
____________________________

P.S. Good piece to post, Ajax - it's generated some good discussion. I'm glad to see that almost everyone disagrees with it. :\/:

Controversial views, whether informed or not, are worth looking at. Wisdom comes not from knowing what is right, but being able to look at the whole spectrum of ideas and critically anaylze them to find where the truth lies.

Besides, I always like to stir things up a bit!

TNT: I love and hate when you make a post. I love it because what you say is so damn eloquent and informative. I hate it because once you have spoken, there is usually nothing intelligent left for anybody else to add!

:bang: Court is out! Thank the hon. Judge TNT.

lol...

That why I asked you to come to comment TNT.

As for the fool @ Anabolic Fitness that wrote the thread in the first place (not you Ajax), I would like ot thank that crack head for allowing up to have such a interesting thread.

And it has been just that... interesting.

And Ajax I agree with you on the comment about TNT usually tieing up a thread!

Well now this is nailed... time to go home!

:hello: