How many of you use HCG throughout cycle?

[G-13]

I have read alot about hcg lately. It seems alot of bro's are getting great results using small amounts during their cycle to help when pct comes around.
How many of you have used it both ways? And what were your results?

Thank you for your time!

-G

[DieselNYC80]

This was probably posted in the wrong section but I am interested in hearing what everyone has to say....

Lets hear it guys

[JohnnyB]

I always do, right now I'm using 500iu every 3 days on a test/eq/tren enan cycle

JohnnyB

[anabolicbruce]

Johnny B- Do you notice less testicular atrophy and faster post cycle recovery using HCG during cycle?

[Mesomorphyl]

Never throughout here... I use 2000iu every four days for 5 shots in the middle of cycle and the same at the end or 1000iu ed for 10 days at the end, I like the former better. Always use nolvadex along side it... I notice a fast recovery after cycle even using harsh components like tren or deca , plus I am an old fart comparitively speaking(36).

[G-13]

Thanks for the replies...

[JohnnyB]

Never throughout here... I use 2000iu every four days for 5 shots in the middle of cycle and the same at the end or 1000iu ed for 10 days at the end, I like the former better. Always use nolvadex along side it...

Good thing you add the nolva, those doses will raise estrogen. The 1000iu ed for 10 days will do the same with estrogen. The active life is about 64 hours, so the 1000iu doses will get into the estrogen raising range. Here's a study comparing small doses to a large dose


Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).

JohnnyB

[Mesomorphyl]

Good thing you add the nolva, those doses will raise estrogen. The 1000iu ed for 10 days will do the same with estrogen. The active life is about 64 hours, so the 1000iu doses will get into the estrogen raising range. Here's a study comparing small doses to a large dose



JohnnyB

good study JohnnyB, but here is one for you. It shows you can use nolvadex not just to protect against raising estrogen, but it prevents leydig cell desensitization when using high dose hcg .


Posted by Nandi12 on CEM


Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.



Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

[Seattle Junk]

My hand just went up. I was using 500ius eod but now I'm going to go e3d like Johnny. The boys are at full weight now....Hehehe...... I'm using prop @ 100mgs ed & MR r3IGF-1 @ 60mcgs ed, PWO. This cycle goes into PCT with IGF for about 2 weeks with PCT only. So it's prop for 20 days then into PCT with r3IGF-1 & HCG then clomid and tongkat after all the fun is over.

[TRE]

I would only use it if your running high levels of AS. All the beginner cycles dont need it in my opinion and your just wasting money.

[Seattle Junk]

Never throughout here... I use 2000iu every four days for 5 shots in the middle of cycle and the same at the end or 1000iu ed for 10 days at the end, I like the former better. Always use nolvadex along side it... I notice a fast recovery after cycle even using harsh components like tren or deca, plus I am an old fart comparitively speaking(36).

You should try lower doses spread out throughout your cycle. I'm a old buzzard too and this seems to be working good and it makes a lot of sense. Look at the study Johnny posted. No libido problems for sure...I'm a jackahammer!

[Mesomorphyl]

My hand just went up. I was using 500ius eod but now I'm going to go e3d like Johnny. The boys are at full weight now....Hehehe...... I'm using prop @ 100mgs ed & MR r3IGF-1 @ 60mcgs ed, PWO. This cycle goes into PCT with IGF for about 2 weeks with PCT only. So it's prop for 20 days then into PCT with r3IGF-1 & HCG then clomid and tongkat after all the fun is over.

Stop the hcg when you stop the prop or no more than one week past... Listen if you read my post you know the importance of using nolvadex while using hcg. Your boys are also going to retain "weight" because igf helps in that area as well... What was your question?

[gaa9679572]

good study JohnnyB, but here is one for you. It shows you can use nolvadex not just to protect against raising estrogen, but it prevents leydig cell desensitization when using high dose hcg .


Posted by Nandi12 on CEM


Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.



Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

good read. According to the dates they are a litle out-dated though. It makes sense from what the study shows, but it would be interesting to find anything newer that might either go into more detail or give us more information. Good read though meso, thanks

[Seattle Junk]

Stop the hcg when you stop the prop or no more than one week past... Listen if you read my post you know the importance of using nolvadex while using hcg. Your boys are also going to retain "weight" because igf helps in that area as well... What was your question?

Your right about the HCG. I planned it to be done with at about the 5th day after the last prop shot. What about l-dex instead of nolva? I have some of that coming, it should be here today.

[Mesomorphyl]

good read. According to the dates they are a litle out-dated though. It makes sense from what the study shows, but it would be interesting to find anything newer that might either go into more detail or give us more information. Good read though meso, thanks

Some studies on dbol ended in the 60's they were good studies; those testosterone studies were in the 80's; so I think a study proving nolvadex prevents desensitization of leydig cells, which everyone worries about, in the 90's seemingly should not be considered outdated unless new ones prove otherwise.

[Mesomorphyl]

Your right about the HCG. I planned it to be done with at about the 5th day after the last prop shot. What about l-dex instead of nolva? I have some of that coming, it should be here today.

ldex prevents aromatase (test conversion to estrogen) and should have been used throughout cycle, so I am not sure if it prevents desensitivity on leydig cells. I recover faster if I stop arimidex one week into my pct.

Listen, using the low dose hcg it is said that will not cause issues so you more than likely just fine. I just use it differently and it works for me as well as a few others I know. I use to debate this with LACbodybuilder all the time... great guy. He uses swales protocol... I do not as it is for hrt test replacement therapy patients(guys on for life) and is not proven for my peace of mind for cyclers, although some use it successfully.

[Seattle Junk]

Some studies on dbol ended in the 60's they were good studies; those testosterone studies were in the 80's; so I think a study proving nolvadex prevents desensitization of leydig cells, which everyone worries about, in the 90's seemingly should not be considered outdated unless new ones prove otherwise.

I just checked the mail and I did receive my Anastrozole 30ml vial, 1mg/ml. Does Liquidex (Anastrozole) prevent desensitization of leydig cells as well?

[Mesomorphyl]

I just checked the mail and I did receive my Anastrozole 30ml vial, 1mg/ml. Does Liquidex (Anastrozole) prevent desensitization of leydig cells as well?

I think we must have posted around the same time... I said I was not sure about that. I would however start ldex immediatly and load up the first week with 1mg per day then back it down to working dose of .25-.5 ed... the reason is it take about one week to work up to proper blood levels.

[DrugsrGood]

interesting...glad to hear there may be some wasy around leydig cell desensitizing. i like hcg very much but use very sparingly for that reason.