Thread: What do we really know
10-11-2001, 09:25 AM #1
What do we really know
This is a topic that I think we all (especially I) could learn from. I would like anyone with any documented (A.S. or otherwise) studies, clinical or laboratory to share that info with the forum. I keep reading people asking for documentation or studies for an A.S.'s or other chemical's use and I have never seen anything so I'm asking for your help. Show me.
10-11-2001, 09:48 AM #2
Ok I have studied lots of text, but in fairness I find that the "knowledge" of well-informed users to be some what different to the text, maybe the text doesn't keep upto date with the latest developments, but I have found my self being in the middle off conflicting theories, those practiced and those that aren't.
I think I kow what you lookoing for here, and I am not able to recite anything at this point. But I would rather research and verify with the knowledge base I have here.
Anyway I go on hopefully that makes sense.......ish
10-11-2001, 09:52 AM #3
Search the internet.They are out there but most are for animals that have had these steroids injected.Some medical studies I have come across are for humans but are for a totally different purpose to what we use them for eg AIDS Asthma Burns Victims Muscle disorders and in totally different dosages.Never seen reports for them being stacked how BB do.
Like I can say there are plenty of studies on the web just need to spend a couple of hours on there researching.
10-11-2001, 10:26 AM #4Mike Guest
My lord - there thousands of real studies out there - what do you want?
I ask for them when someone brings up a point I believe is contradictory to the truth because I don't consider some bodybuilding site a valid source if info - I mean a lot of it is true and useful but when getting into a discussion of how something works chemically I am only impressed with unbiased clinical research and abstracts (I work in pharmaceuticals so I am a little biased/spoiled)
Anyway - what studies do you want to see??
10-11-2001, 10:38 AM #5
Yes I've seen some studies done with animals and those inflicted with burns etc. What I'm talking about here is how did we find out that clenbuterol had anti catabolic properties? I read it but there's no research that says it. How do we know that clomid prescribed for women to aid in ovulation promotes hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis in men? There has never been a study that I 've read? We know from research that HCG is FDA approved for the treatment of undescended testicles in young boys, hypogonadism (underproduction of testosterone ) and as a fertility drug used to aid in inducing ovulation in women. But how do we know how much to use? How do we know that when using Deca for example one should use test with it at a 2/1 ratio to prevent deca dick. I've read it and heard it but there is no study that reveals this. This is what I'm talking about. I've yet to see a documented study as to how any combination of A.S.'s are used. We only have feedback and personal experiences from those who have "been there and done that". Am I wrong?
10-11-2001, 12:01 PM #6Mike Guest
You are both right AND wrong. First off - I just want to correct a couple things - I never supported any theory that deca should be dosed with test at a 2:1 ratio to prevent 'deca dick' - I think that's absurd. Secondly - hypogonadism definitely results in reduced levels of testosterone but they "underproduction of testosterone " and "hypogonadism" are not in fact synonymous. I have to repeat that there are NO studies on clomid in men to raise testosterone levels - you wont find these. You are thinking too literally. Search for abstract on a smaller level than that. Find out what the correlation is between testostereon levels and clomid. What the pk data is on clomid in men AND women and what hormonal sides does this create. THEN based on studies done on the testosterone levels in relation to certain AS usage you can deduce why a certain dosage of clomid would do what to testosterone levels, when and how.
You have to start on a smaller level than that.
(BTW - just so you know there is no animosity on my part - I love intellectual conversations and welcome debate. In fact I respect your opinions and admire the thought and research you have put into it - your questions are very good and very valid.)
10-11-2001, 12:26 PM #7
Well, clomid won't work to elevate test levels beyond what they would normally be while off cycle. It only works when test levels are low. Clomid increases FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone), which stimulates produciton of sperm, and LH (luteinizing hormone), which stimulatesrelease of testosterone . However, you still have a negative feedback loop to worry about and that's what regulates hormone levels usually so that when various hormone levels get too high, a negative feedback loop slows down production of that hormone either directly or indirectly. That's why clomid won't work unless test levels are low to begin with. There's some info for ya.
10-11-2001, 12:32 PM #8
Thanks for that guys, very informative.
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