cycle affected by glutamine?

**big'r** · 10-10-2005, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by hooker

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

Your theory on how i got my information is jus as funny as your theory on glutamine. (Though it sucks i did not see his thread before it does not mind. One has to do a pubmed search anyway.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi You search for:
-glutamine[ti] AND synthesis[ti]
-exercise AND glutamine
-glutamine AND gluconeogenesis NOT rats NOT cancer NOT mice
-glutamine AND fasted
You find an amount of studies. Look at the variables. And voila.... You don't need to be a phd to check things for yourself.
And yes i posted all information. Also the positive studies!!!!
Note that the studies i show were all done in healthy individuals
Well at least your not claiming any more glutamine is usefull. You only think it, like the other board members.

So i take it your not going to provide me 1 single study glutamine supplementation is usefull in healthy subjects?

**Two4the$$** · 10-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Dude, there are people who claim steroids don't actually build muscle... You realize this right? It doesn't matter that there's a counter argument ... but rather that EXPERTS AGREE (or at least the majority of them do) that gives cause for a theory. Don't use it if you don't want to. No one here cares. We're looking for things LIKELY to work. So, voila.

Honestly, I appreciate your goal ... which is to argue a point to get to a higher understanding - but you appear to be biased in your objectives, and it's not clear why.

**topvega** · 10-10-2005, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by hooker

Yeah, yeah....see...the thing is guys like you come on a board and hold a controversial opinion, and then go through this absurd 5-10 page long defense of it. But in reality, you're just rehashing the opinion of David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. (Univ. of Warterloo) who used exactly the same studies as you have and held exactly the same opinions. The thing is, some people may be impressed by you (nobody here is, though), and some may even think you've produced this original, thought provoking thread. But in reality, you read an article (probably on T-Nation) about this other guy's thoughts on Glutamine, and you're passing them off as your own.

Is there a strong case for Mr. Barr's argument? Yes. Do I think that Glutamine is useful, on a cycle, regardless? Yes. Do I think you've done any original research or thinking? Well...I think that it's evident that Mr.Barr proposed all of "your" ideas before you did. And thats why he writes for T-nation, and you don't I suppose.

u will never admit it, but Hooker hit the nail on the head in my opinion...

by the way... u make people miss the mind of ross......

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-10-2005, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by RoidGut

Kinda makes you wish there was a giant rock you(big'r) can crawl under now....

I am willing to bet alot of money the rock would not have to be giant or that big at all really...

**Property of Steroid.com** · 10-10-2005, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by big'r

Your theory on how i got my information is jus as funny as your theory on glutamine. (Though it sucks i did not see his thread before it does not mind. One has to do a pubmed search anyway.)

Yeah. Being second sucks, I've heard. I wouldn't know...

And it's not a thread per se, it's an article. Thats what people who get paid to write produce...articles...not a billion posts; articles. But once again....you need to be first, not second, if you are going to produce something of worth.

Well at least your not claiming any more glutamine is usefull. You only think it, like the other board members.

Err...didn't I say that it's useful in my last post? not only do I think it, I still said it...Its not the greatest thing ever, and it's over-hyped (and not as good as a couple other amino's) but it's effects on the immune system and metabolism are (I believe in high doses) worthwhile benefits.

So i take it your not going to provide me 1 single study glutamine supplementation is usefull in healthy subjects?

You need to really take a look at what guys like Charles Poliquin (Probably the worlds best Strength coach) are doing with their athletes...I mean..he has guys on 50g a day of glutamine. Thats really where I think the benefits come in...well over 25g/day, ideally. The majority of studies use nothing near that...and he makes a good case for it having a good amount of properties on your gut, your immune system, etc...There's times when you say yeah, a study is going to be accurate and give us a good idea of how something is gonna work in the real world ....and there's times when you have to see them as not being realistic, and you need to trust someone (Poliquin, in this case) who compiles reams of data on real-world athletes...although he doesn't wear a lab coat, or have a PhD. I tend not to place much faith in "real world advice" on the boards, which usually translates to "I've done no research," but in this particular case, when I can trust either a guy who works with world class athletes day in and day out, monitoring their responses to glutamine and other compounds, or a guy in a white lab coat...well...unless the guy in the white lab coat has Olymipc Gold Medalists banging down his door to find out what his methods are, like Poliquin does...I'll just stick with the guy who's training the athletes winning the Olymipc Medals, the Super Bowls, and the Stanley Cups....

Call me crazy...but results trump studies, in my eyes...

Next time, steal your stuff from somewhere I don't recognize, too....

Lets look at a typically quoted study "proving" glutamine doesn't do anything, just for kicks:

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

In 12 days, the 1rm of the glutamine and non-glutamine groups went up by 30%. Is this relevant to us? No-F-ing-way. Can you add 30% to your squat in 12 days? In fact....wtf did the people conducting this experiment expect to happen in only 12 days? I think, ergo, that their conclusion is simply not relevant to anyone on this board.

**topvega** · 10-10-2005, 08:43 PM

**Two4the$$** · 10-10-2005, 09:26 PM

If I were big'R, I'd probably say something like ...

"mercy"

**james21** · 10-10-2005, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

If I were big'R, I'd probably say something like ...

"mercy"

HAHA yeah I will second that.

**ODC0717** · 10-10-2005, 09:33 PM

Found this on pubmed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...864&query_hl=5
It looks promising and it has the words "protein synthesis" and "glutamine" and "healthy adults"

**big'r** · 10-10-2005, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by hooker

Yeah. Being second sucks, I've heard. I wouldn't know...

And it's not a thread per se, it's an article. Thats what people who get paid to write produce...articles...not a billion posts; articles. But once again....you need to be first, not second, if you are going to produce something of worth.

Err...didn't I say that it's useful in my last post? not only do I think it, I still said it...Its not the greatest thing ever, and it's over-hyped (and not as good as a couple other amino's) but it's effects on the immune system and metabolism are (I believe in high doses) worthwhile benefits.

You need to really take a look at what guys like Charles Poliquin (Probably the worlds best Strength coach) are doing with their athletes...I mean..he has guys on 50g a day of glutamine. Thats really where I think the benefits come in...well over 25g/day, ideally. The majority of studies use nothing near that...and he makes a good case for it having a good amount of properties on your gut, your immune system, etc...There's times when you say yeah, a study is going to be accurate and give us a good idea of how something is gonna work in the real world ....and there's times when you have to see them as not being realistic, and you need to trust someone (Poliquin, in this case) who compiles reams of data on real-world athletes...although he doesn't wear a lab coat, or have a PhD. I tend not to place much faith in "real world advice" on the boards, which usually translates to "I've done no research," but in this particular case, when I can trust either a guy who works with world class athletes day in and day out, monitoring their responses to glutamine and other compounds, or a guy in a white lab coat...well...unless the guy in the white lab coat has Olymipc Gold Medalists banging down his door to find out what his methods are, like Poliquin does...I'll just stick with the guy who's training the athletes winning the Olymipc Medals, the Super Bowls, and the Stanley Cups....

Call me crazy...but results trump studies, in my eyes...

Next time, steal your stuff from somewhere I don't recognize, too....

Lets look at a typically quoted study "proving" glutamine doesn't do anything, just for kicks:

Effect of glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults.

Candow DG, Chilibeck PD, Burke DG, Davison KS, Smith-Palmer T.

College of Kinesiology, University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

The purpose of this study was to assess the effect of oral glutamine supplementation combined with resistance training in young adults. A group of 31 subjects, aged 18-24 years, were randomly allocated to groups (double blind) to receive either glutamine (0.9 g x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 17) or a placebo (0.9 g maltodextrin x kg lean tissue mass(-1) x day(-1); n = 14 during 6 weeks of total body resistance training. Exercises were performed for four to five sets of 6-12 repetitions at intensities ranging from 60% to 90% 1 repetition maximum (1 RM). Before and after training, measurements were taken of 1 RM squat and bench press strength, peak knee extension torque (using an isokinetic dynamometer), lean tissue mass (dual energy X-ray absorptiometry) and muscle protein degradation (urinary 3-methylhistidine by high performance liquid chromatography). Repeated measures ANOVA showed that strength, torque, lean tissue mass and 3-methylhistidine increased with training (P < 0.05), with no significant difference between groups. Both groups increased their 1 RM squat by approximately 30% and 1 RM bench press by approximately 14%. The glutamine group showed increases of 6% for knee extension torque, 2% for lean tissue mass and 41% for urinary levels of 3-methylhistidine. The placebo group increased knee extension torque by 5%, lean tissue mass by 1.7% and 3-methylhistidine by 56%. We conclude that glutamine supplementation during resistance training has no significant effect on muscle performance, body composition or muscle protein degradation in young healthy adults.

In 12 days, the 1rm of the glutamine and non-glutamine groups went up by 30%. Is this relevant to us? No-F-ing-way. Can you add 30% to your squat in 12 days? In fact....wtf did the people conducting this experiment expect to happen in only 12 days? I think, ergo, that their conclusion is simply not relevant to anyone on this board.

If i cannot win a discussion as regards content, i'm gonna:

-Claim science sucks. It's personal experience that counts, science is theory. Hereby i'm gonna completely ignore the fact that scientific studies are actually looking at personal experience in individuals (only science looks at total groups/populations and eliminates all variables except for the substance tested, which fact i also completely ignore by stating the substance made me feel good, and i gained muchos lbs. I'm sure it was this substance cause..... Eh well, i know for sure anyway.)
-Totally ignore the studies which have been posted. I will not read them cause i allready know for sure the substance works for me, so why should i open my eyes? Damned i instructed people for 20 years, so i must be right. Here i completely ignore the fact that i may have instructed people falsly in the first place. Cause i read these adds 20 years ago and based my advice on these.
-I'm going to claim lot's of phd's, fitness instructors say the substance will benefit me, completely forgetting to read the references (if there are any at all) and check for myself if the instructor could in any way conclude his writing from these references. Why should i be critical, i can be dumb, the instructor thinks for me. I have never checked pubmed for anything and never will!
-And when i'm really feel like i'm loosing the discussion i'm going to ask for your stats. Flaming you for not being big enough, and therefore people should listen to me... Damned.
-In the case of glutamine i'm going to post studies proving it helps after surgery. I do absolutely not understand surgery differs from exercise, and state exercise is almost as catabolic as surgery.... When someone then posts studies showing glutamine does not work under normal stress, i completely overrule him by going offtopic again and claiming any of the previous points.

**thejuiceisloose** · 10-10-2005, 11:03 PM

Hooker will you own you and keep owning you. There's no question about it. I haven't heard "uncle" from you yet big rectum. Big rectum is like a yugo racing a ferrari(Hooker), you'll never catch up and he can't be beat on his research bub. So put up or shut up, b/c like Hooker stated, "Doesn't it suck to be second, so I've heard?" You got served bub. Take your place @ the end of the line where you belong.

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 01:37 AM

BIg'R ... Listen, I want to give you some credit where credit is due.

1. You're debating a very technical subject in a language that isn't your native language, and doing a pretty good job of it. Kudos.

2. You're taking a stance on a subject that is of the minority view and posing an argument for it that is fairly good - provided you aren't simply standing on the shoulders of the aforemented article and purporting it as your own.

3. You're not allowing a large group of people (who have a vested interest in feeling confident in one of their most trusted sources of information) to pursuade you through our slightly immature belittling comments... me included. You're simply sticking to what you believe to be true, i.e., your best interpretation of the provided information.

My simple question is, what do you have to gain from convincing us that we suffer from mass illusion? Why is it so important to convince us that we've ALL got it wrong... when wrong or right, we all acknowledge the overall effectiveness of it to be rather slight in comparison to anabolics - THE FORUM you HAPPEN to be posting in. Are you concerned that we're wasting our money? Is it proven to THAT extent? What is the "upside" to winning this argument? And what is your vested interest? Is it ego? Reputation? Our wasted $$? What's the objective? Because essentially, although your side is a WEAKER argument (which I'll bet none of us native english speakers would even ATTEMPT to argue a point in Swedish) ... you've done a fairly good job representing it. Congratulations. But it's still at best a shade of gray, and so far with what I've read, a shade that strongly favors Glutamine as effective in aid to recovery... via it's endorsements, mass usage, and scientific findings by reputable sources.

So, again:

1. STATE your goal
2. Tell us why your version (being that there is supportive evidence on both sides) is the side to believe

**zeturB** · 10-11-2005, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

If I were big'R, I'd probably say something like ...

"mercy"

If I were big'R, I'd probably say something like ...

Yo TrumanHW, Skinny Ecto, Shut The **** Up and Train..

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 02:16 AM

LMAO. I am an ectomorph. lol. My target audience happens to not be a BB community, or your faggot ass. lol. My target audience is GIRLS! BUT! Lets get one thing straight;

... During the SAT test, there are multiple choice options that people are to choose the MOST accurate meaning from a passage. These are called INFERENCE tests. Since you clearly didn't get accepted to an acredited college, I'll jump to the conlussion and spell out for you what Big'R is certainly capable of understanding.

I WAS GIVING HIM CREDIT WHERE CREDIT WAS DUE, DIPSH1T! And SINCE I've been training for about 14 months, I WILL continue to train. Your encouragement isn't needed, just as your judgment isn't a concern of mine.

And now... why don't YOU post a picture of yourself... and we can BOTH go and take our photos over to any site where WOMEN!, my target audience can judge us both. And before doing so, we can make a wager, major. And we can see what they think of each of us. lol. Putz.

I know you're refering to an earlier thread of mine ... but hey, I still stand by both of them. I think Big'R is fighting a valient fight, FOR A LOSING CAUSE - against an adversary whose debating, researching, writing, and pursuasive skills probably enable him to deliberately elect to convince a person of something that ISN'T true ... but whose moral ethics and commitment to the community keep him from doing so.

Now piss off.

**100%NATURAL-theGH** · 10-11-2005, 02:25 AM

Wow.. I feel stupider for reading this thread... although I'm considering doubling my Glutamine intake!

Is that Duran Duran in your avatar Bigr? they fricken rock! haha.. no seriously though.. I would have enjoyed a good debate the whole way through but you waited so long to fund your case based off of nothing... I mean these guys deserve a lot of respect with the time they put in on this board.. next time when they lay their cards down on the table don't keep yours like your holding 4 aces... Sure one could argue nothing can be proved... I mean... sure the sun is in the sky.. but can you prove it?? o so you can see it! but can you prove it! o so in a book or on TV they say it exists.... but can you prove it???! that is about how frustrating your bull shit was to listen to.. I have been reading threads on here for quite some time despite my understated count and have never hated anyone so much for a pointless debate... I don't know about for you or anyone else... but my reality is that Glutamine works very well for my purposes and if I'm only imagining that then I'll just keep on doing it! although I can hardly believe that you really believe and of your regurgitated bull shit... anyways bro.... next time give a little respect to our bros on here..

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by 100%NATURAL-theGH

Wow.. I feel stupider for reading this thread... although I'm considering doubling my Glutamine intake!

Is that Duran Duran in your avatar Bigr? they fricken rock! haha.. no seriously though.. I would have enjoyed a good debate the whole way through but you waited so long to fund your case based off of nothing... I mean these guys deserve a lot of respect with the time they put in on this board.. next time when they lay their cards down on the table don't keep yours like your holding 4 aces... Sure one could argue nothing can be proven... I mean... sure the sun is in the sky.. but can you prove it?? o so you can see it! but can you prove it! o so in a book or on TV they say it exists.... but can you prove it???! that is about how frustrating your bull shit was to listen to.. I have been reading threads on here for quite some time despite my understated count and have never hated anyone so much for a pointless debate... I don't know about for you or anyone else... but my reality is that Glutamine works very well for my purposes and if I'm only imagining that then I'll just keep on doing it! although I can hardly believe that you really believe and of your regurgitated bull shit... anyways bro.... next time give a little respect to our bros on here..

NO SHIT! We are FORTUNATE to belong to one of the best boards on the net...

This is like the detective who asked me if it was sunny earlier that day.

"I said, well, you know, to be honest I was out till about 5am .. then I came home, drilled my woman, ate like a pig ... passed out, and woke up around 4pm. Then, I ate again, watched some porn, and took a nap. By the time I actually went outside... I think it was a little after 6 o'clock, and was pretty cloudy."

Later I see the report... and it says ...

"Suspect denies the sun was shining."

I hate bullshit purported as objective. It's the worst form of a lie.

**Testostack** · 10-11-2005, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by stevenb

I have always taking glutamine. It is premixed with my protein powder and It has never hurt me. It might depend on the body and how you taking it. I usually take it post workout..

Glutamine is great, and more it should be considered by evrey Bber

Great avatar you got there dude, who's that hottie?

**MASTERDBOL** · 10-11-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by jezurd

Das een geheim kerel. ;-) (zie mij maar als bondgenoot die zich inzet tegen de strijd van stomme en arrogante... kan wel een hele lijstje kwijt, amerikanen) Maar ik zie dat die mongolen zich maar niet aanpassen, kanker lui wordt er iets uitgelegd en probeer je ze te helpen, kunnen ze erniet tegen dat iemand meer wijsheid heeft dan hun pindanootjes' hersenen.

this aint f***in stutgart. speak english!!!

**MASTERDBOL** · 10-11-2005, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by jezurd

Hmmm but it does not work for you huh, based on your avatar...

where is your avatar??!!!!!

**thejuiceisloose** · 10-11-2005, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by jezurd

Das een geheim kerel. ;-) (zie mij maar als bondgenoot die zich inzet tegen de strijd van stomme en arrogante... kan wel een hele lijstje kwijt, amerikanen) Maar ik zie dat die mongolen zich maar niet aanpassen, kanker lui wordt er iets uitgelegd en probeer je ze te helpen, kunnen ze erniet tegen dat iemand meer wijsheid heeft dan hun pindanootjes' hersenen.

You know, you should really rethink what you say b/c YOU are the dumb and arrogant, in America we speak English so put up or shut up. And as for the peanut brains, check yourself bub. You and your little homo friends can back the f*** up and crawl back under that little rock you came from.

**stevenb** · 10-11-2005, 12:51 PM

this post is and has been for awhile fukin crazy....

**stevenb** · 10-11-2005, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Testostack

Glutamine is great, and more it should be considered by evrey Bber

Great avatar you got there dude, who's that hottie?

Some chick on the net. No one I know. Maybe Jenny M...

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 12:58 PM

Jizz-turd, I have to say. You're just an idiot. I hope you get banned. You contribute nothing here.

**MASTERDBOL** · 10-11-2005, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

Jizz-turd, I have to say. You're just an idiot. I hope you get banned. You contribute nothing here.

he's a f***in jack off. him and his "no response" queer buddy, big rectum.

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-11-2005, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

Jizz-turd, I have to say. You're just an idiot. I hope you get banned. You contribute nothing here.

hahaha jizturd... 17 out of 17 posts are attacking. Matter of fact he should be reported. At least big'r tried to make sense.

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 01:07 PM

I agree Meso

(although you were BRUTAL to me earlier! ... but that's okay, you're true to your nature.)

Thing is, Jizz-Turd attacked me right after I gave Big'R some credit for things. I hate it when people only selectively read a persons prospective.

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-11-2005, 01:07 PM

Bye bye jizturd. Your minutes are limited just as if you were physically in front of me.

**shortie** · 10-11-2005, 01:14 PM

The thread that wouldn't die......................

Oh BTW has anyone else notice that Ross's(I mean Big R) buddy Jizzturd has 17 whole posts and half of them aren't in english-I am sure that fvck is here to contribute. NOT! Remember to be nice to an American Jizzturd, if it weren't for us that foreign language would be German!!!!!!!!!

RA · 10-11-2005, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

Bye bye jizturd. Your minutes are limited just as if you were physically in front of me.

When I started reading this I thought someone was actually named jizturd.

**Swifto** · 10-11-2005, 01:18 PM

There's no space here for non-contributing idiots at AR. Give the bloke what he deserves and ban him.

Go and anoy some other boards members.

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 01:25 PM

No kidding ... how clear is the bias of his allegance?

**KeyMastur** · 10-11-2005, 01:29 PM

jez. either you delete your posts and i'll let the banning / suspension slide for now, or i'll do both.

i'd have kept this to PM's but you are unable to receive them.

**KeyMastur** · 10-11-2005, 01:37 PM

actually. here's the deal

big'r - jez - and boor - whatever their full names may be - i'll give YOU since you are pretty much either the same person or friends with each other - time to clean it all up....how's 20 minutes sound ?

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-11-2005, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by KeyMastur

actually. here's the deal

big'r - jez - and boor - whatever their full names may be - i'll give YOU since you are pretty much either the same person or friends with each other - time to clean it all up....how's 20 minutes sound ?

I think it sounds too long, lol

**MASTERDBOL** · 10-11-2005, 01:41 PM

isnt the twenty minutes up?

**shortie** · 10-11-2005, 01:42 PM

I am curious as to what Big R is trying to sell here, he made this same argument in three different posts on two different boards within days of each other. Sounds like someone is trying to sell an idea.

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-11-2005, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL

isnt the twenty minutes up?

LMAO

**Two4the$$** · 10-11-2005, 01:42 PM

What a great board we have. Judicial and exceedingly considerate intervention. KeyMastur, VERY good judgment, very diplomatic. Kudos - brother! I see why you have been given authority here.

**Mesomorphyl** · 10-11-2005, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by shortie

I am curious as to what Big R is trying to sell here, he made this same argument in three different posts on two different boards within days of each other. Sounds like someone is trying to sell an idea.

mind of ross?