clen and the possible damage on cardiac muscle..

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2005, 11:10 AM

Ive read from hookers profile that clen can possibly cause necrosis to cardiac muscle. Any1 know more about this since that would be irreversible, I know that it is prolly in a small scale but still.. If this is big risk I would maybe wanna reconsider my adding of clen to PCT.

**Seattle Junk** · 10-12-2005, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by stupidhippo

Ive read from hookers profile that clen can possibly cause necrosis to cardiac muscle. Any1 know more about this since that would be irreversible, I know that it is prolly in a small scale but still.. If this is big risk I would maybe wanna reconsider my adding of clen to PCT.

Do you mean the heart?

**alo5603** · 10-12-2005, 12:45 PM

its true, supposedly can eat away at parts of the heart i believe, ask hooker, he would know for sure.

alo

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2005, 01:03 PM

I know and since this damage is irreversible sounds a lil sketchy.. but then again this damage could be so small that it doesnt really matter... But this is all theory and we do know that clen has been used succesfully with little problems for a while.. Dunno what to think yet.. hoping for some enlightment here from smart ppl ..

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2005, 01:07 PM

who was that answer for. sounds lke it was to the other clen thread here maybe?

**stayinstacked** · 10-12-2005, 01:12 PM

I've read this too, but there are so many factors in a persons life that can elevate heart rate, blood pressure, etc that a short clen cycle isnt scaring me anytime soon. However, I no longer take it above 100 mcg no matter what.

**alo5603** · 10-12-2005, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by stupidhippo

who was that answer for. sounds lke it was to the other clen thread here maybe?

my bad bro, thanks for catchin that for me.

alo

**timtim** · 10-12-2005, 01:14 PM

Low Dose Clen Induces Cardiac Apoptosis (cell death of heart cells)
Originaly posted by nandi on CM board.

It's been known for some time that Clenbuterol at high doses causes cardiac necrosis. This study in animals shows that doses of 1 mcg/kg BW induce apoptosis (programmed cell death) in heart tissue. Humans not uncommonly ingest this much Clen. For instance, in a 220 lb (100 kg) bodybuilder this translates to 100 mcg. The CEM store sells Clen at a concentration of 200 mcg/ml! Other UG labs sell it at similar concentrations, ranging from 100 to 200 mcg per ml.

J Appl Physiol. 2004 Dec 10; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

{beta}2-Adrenergic receptor stimulation in vivo induces apoptosis in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Burniston JG, Tan LB, Goldspink DF.

Research Institute for Sports and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool, United Kingdom.

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist, Clenbuterol, can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known if this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of Clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections using a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed using annexin V, single-strand DNA labelling and TUNEL). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h, and peaked 4 h after Clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of Clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg kg(-1), with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.005 %; P<0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg kg(-1) . In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2 %; P<0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg kg(-1). Cardiomyocyte apoptosis occurred throughout the ventricles, atria and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way from the apex towards the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol or ICI 118,551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by Clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.

**stayinstacked** · 10-12-2005, 01:17 PM

**** man, I almost wish I didnt read that, I got more clen on the way right now!! Yeah, maybe i'll have to change up to something like ephedra instead

**Two4the$$** · 10-12-2005, 01:37 PM

Yeah, f*ck clen . DNP for sure. At least you'll know if you're vision is getting worse, and can lower the dose. With clen however, there's no easy measuring of the damage, and that's not the only cardiac related negative sides. My current disposition leads me more to DNP - guaranteed results (not this BS of clen, maybe/maybe not shiot) ... but results assured! And without damaging your organs. Keep the dosages low, and the durations short, but the gains occur - and the sides are definitely within what I can deal with. Safer and definitely works is a combination of attributes I cannot ignore.

**Two4the$$** · 10-12-2005, 01:40 PM

Personally, I'm always glad to read something that informs me in a manner that can improve future safety - even if I have to come to terms with past damage I have done... Sadder but wiser ... and wisdom will save our A$$es! Lets never ignore the information out of preference's sake for our objectives, nor the acceptance of our mistakes.

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2005, 01:41 PM

how bad is cardiac myocyte apoptosis in this case? Cause apoptosis shouldnt leave necrotic tissue behind which would be replaced by fibrous tissue - which in turn would never be functional.. So im not really clear on would the damages caused by apoptosis be reversible or not. some1 know this? So basically Im trying ot find out that is realitely low dose clen realtively safe with no long term damage (even if it would induce some apoptosis to some extent). I hvent checked any of this info but htis is how I remember it..

**stayinstacked** · 10-12-2005, 01:49 PM

what if we all just took GH and enlarged our hearts, surely then the detereoration shouldnt matter as much right?

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2005, 02:16 PM

not really .. I hope u joking =)

**Two4the$$** · 10-12-2005, 02:27 PM

LMAO! GH to enlarge your heart? Hmmm... show that study please?

**goose** · 10-12-2005, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by TrumanHW

Yeah, f*ck clen. DNP for sure. At least you'll know if you're vision is getting worse, and can lower the dose. With clen however, there's no easy measuring of the damage, and that's not the only cardiac related negative sides. My current disposition leads me more to DNP - guaranteed results (not this BS of clen, maybe/maybe not shiot) ... but results assured! And without damaging your organs. Keep the dosages low, and the durations short, but the gains occur - and the sides are definitely within what I can deal with. Safer and definitely works is a combination of attributes I cannot ignore.

The thing I hate about clen is the feeling your heart will explode,with chest pains,im not sure I will use it again.

Have you used DNP or will you? The 3 things I would never have the balls to do tren ,slin and DNP

goose4....

**Two4the$$** · 10-12-2005, 05:37 PM

I'm on Tren , it's awesome.

I'm going to try DNP , seems LESS risky than Clen .

I don't want to be huge, so Slin isn't for me. I want to be a little bigger, and about 7%.