Tamoxifen and IGF-1 produciton

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10-16-2005, 03:18 PM
powerliftmike

Tamoxifen and IGF-1 produciton

I was searching about Tamoxifen's effect on IGF-1 production, which alot of people say is why it reduces gains on cycle, with google and came upon this:

"On a tangent, The IGF-1 to which we're referring is only hepatically-derived IGF-1 and not the splice variant of IGF-1 that is expressed in skeletal muscle. It's still debatable whether or not systemic, hepatically-derived IGF-1 plays any significant role in skeletal muscle hypertrophy. When injected IM, it induces hypertrophy in the muscle into which it was injected....also, when IGF-1 (the hepatic isoform) has been expressed in skeletal muscle (rats), there is significant hypertrophy in the muscle in which it was overexpressed and some effect on nearby muscles, but there has shown to be NO increase in plasma IGF-1 levels. This implies that IGF-1 does not leave the muscle,which is its site of origi, very effectively. This would also suggest the opposite is true; that it won't enter muscle efficiently."

So, if Tamoxifen reduces IGF-1 does it only do so in the liver?; and IGF-1 sourced from the liver is not-anabolic (ie doesn't make it to muscle tissue)?
10-16-2005, 03:19 PM
powerliftmike

I want to run this by hooker for sure! :)
10-16-2005, 03:27 PM
Pinnacle

I've only heard speculation in regards to this matter.I've yet to see any studies done on humans to confirm this.
Possibly someone will step up to the plate with actually studies that can confirm this.NOT STUDIES THAT "SUGGESTS" IT'S POSSIBLE!!

~Pinnacle~
10-16-2005, 03:51 PM
powerliftmike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

I've only heard speculation in regards to this matter.I've yet to see any studies done on humans to confirm this.
Possibly someone will step up to the plate with actually studies that can confirm this.NOT STUDIES THAT "SUGGESTS" IT'S POSSIBLE!!

~Pinnacle~

Yeah, knowing its true for rats doesnt help me out much.
10-16-2005, 05:20 PM
Pinnacle

I found this one post.Although he didn't post his test results,this is what he said..

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsashbl

Yes, it lowers the effect for me but I have no choice. GH gives me gyno and does not really effect my E. So I have to take Nolva with GH. (I have a very experienced doc that has worked on this with me.)

My IGF level was around 340 on 4iu. Should have been way higher, but the Nolva knocked it down a bit.
10-16-2005, 05:24 PM
powerliftmike

Cool. I have never heard of HGH causing gyno, i dont think that is even possible.
10-16-2005, 05:25 PM
powerliftmike

Where is Hooker? :7up:
10-16-2005, 06:41 PM
JohnnyB

Nolva is used for breast cancer, it's been shown that cancer patients have higher IGF-1 levels, so nolva lower IGF-1 to help combat the cancer. If I remember right, it does it by binding the IGF-1 with a Binding Protein. LR3 binds poorly to IGF-1 BP, so it shouldn't have the same effect on LR3 as it does on IGF-1.

As far as the rat goes, that's a prefect example of studies not applying or being relevant to us and our needs. I read a study that showed LR3 had no negative feedback on HGH pulse, that would be great if it played out in our use. It was done on a pigs or rats.

I'll say that most of what you read about drugs we use, reducing IGF-1, won't apply to LR3, because IGF-1 BP binds poorly to LR3. Now if you read something that say, it effected IGF-1 and it's analogs, then it could apply to LR3, but without human studies, we'll never know for sure.

I've heard there have been some studies done on humans with LR3, but I can't find them. If there are any, you most need a licenses to get them or some type of professinal status

JohnnyB
10-16-2005, 08:08 PM
powerliftmike

Thanks JohnnyB, I still want to know how much it would suppress natural IGF-1 levels (and is this even that big of a loss of potential growth if it does).
10-17-2005, 12:02 AM
Seattle Junk

Is this speculation on reduced igf-1 levels nolva specific? Could this also apply to other AIs/SERMs?
10-17-2005, 05:54 AM
powerliftmike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

Is this speculation on reduced igf-1 levels nolva specific? Could this also apply to other AIs/SERMs?

I think it is mainly a problem with Nolvadex, tho possibly clomid too. I am pretty sure arimidex does not have any effect on it. But again, I am not certain.
10-17-2005, 06:21 AM
offensive behavior

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerliftmike

I think it is mainly a problem with Nolvadex, tho possibly clomid too. I am pretty sure arimidex does not have any effect on it. But again, I am not certain.

so why using nolva for gyno? i read that arimidex is better in lowering the estrogen levels as it decreases the armotization and you can use it all through the cycle at a dose 0.25-1mg without lowering your gains
10-17-2005, 08:06 AM
JohnnyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

Is this speculation on reduced igf-1 levels nolva specific? Could this also apply to other AIs/SERMs?

Yes it's with all of them, they lower IGF-1 to help combat cancer

JohnnyB
10-17-2005, 10:51 AM
powerliftmike

Quote:

Originally Posted by offensive behavior

so why using nolva for gyno? i read that arimidex is better in lowering the estrogen levels as it decreases the armotization and you can use it all through the cycle at a dose 0.25-1mg without lowering your gains

Nolva is quite a different drug from arimidex. Many people use nolva or nolva/proviron stacks because arimidex is very bad for lipids and very expensive.
10-17-2005, 10:52 AM
powerliftmike

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Yes it's with all of them, they lower IGF-1 to help combat cancer

JohnnyB

That's interesting. Do they all have about the same effect on IGF-1 or is nolvadex more pronounced?
10-17-2005, 11:01 AM
Seattle Junk

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Yes it's with all of them, they lower IGF-1 to help combat cancer

JohnnyB

I know that damn clomid is making my vision weird right now. I take it at night like Meso does. Last night I was seeing these faint yellow bubbles or something for a minute or so. Sometimes your eyes kind of shake. I was doing 105mcgs but now I'm doing 70mcgs with less sides. I felt a lot of pressure in my head at the higher amount.
10-17-2005, 11:04 AM
powerliftmike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seattle Junk

I know that damn clomid is making my vision weird right now. I take it at night like Meso does. Last night I was seeing these faint yellow bubbles or something for a minute or so. Sometimes your eyes kind of shake. I was doing 105mcgs but now I'm doing 70mcgs with less sides. I felt a lot of pressure in my head at the higher amount.

If clomid gives you trouble, just increase your nolvadex dosage in pct (instead of using clomid). They both act in similar ways.