Discussion: Has the Human Body changed that much, why all the inflated doses/stacks? Your thoughts/comments...all input appreciated.
Discussion: Has the Human Body changed that much, why all the inflated doses/stacks? Your thoughts/comments...all input appreciated.
what are u asking us to debate?
Im wanting us to debate why we as mear amauters think we need to take elevated doses/stacks as compared to what our counterparts took back years ago. They obviously had more committment than we recreational users do these days. Im sure there are plenty of rec users on this board taking more doses than Arnold took during his days but are not near close to his size. Food for thought!
This can be a good thread, i was wondering similar thoughts. also goes in line w/ all these new workout routines that r out there, where as the basics & standard movements worked well before, which ppl fail to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by cannibal
i know we learned alot as the years went by, but somethings get to carried away like : why did a deca/dbol stack w/ no test (a common cycle in the 50's/60's) work then & now its a no no. there were also some mentioning of dbol only cycles @ low doses for a couple of months that produced impressive gradual gains & keep gains. just some thought...
Im sure there are plenty of rec users on this board taking more doses than Arnold took during his days but are not near close to his size. Food for thought![/QUOTE]
i think this goes back to the "more is better" moto, which falls into the high that u recieve when u notice gains & influences guys to up their doses.
I'm still one of the strong beleivers in that 500mg/week of test is too much for a beginner,i know more than one member who got BETTER results doing 250mg a week of test-e with good diet and exerise program, and great results doing on 20mg winstrol a day + clenbuterol than people who did 50mg+ a day.
The problem is that many people are still treating steroids as "muscle in a bottle" and slacking off when it comes to other things like great diet+supplementation+rest+varying exercise program.
Thats why there are even cases of people getting better results on creatine than on real gear!!
Do you actually know what Arnold took??
I think you are mistaken in saying we take more than the BBers of old, prior to the Steroid control act of 1991 it was not uncommon to look in the back of Flex magazine to find your suppliers, and Test cyp was still in full production by American pharmaceutical companies. The end result of all this availability was many BBers using up to 1 gram A DAY of testosterone. I would say the big differences in todays BBers and yesterdays isn't doses, but more advanced gear and a higher understanding of how it effects our bodies, how to nurish correctly for this, and far more advanced supplements and ancillaries. As far as them having more commitment than todays rec users, sure they did, they were pros, that's how they made their living, but remember if any of the old greats stepped on stage today beside Ronnie and Jay they'd be laughed off for looking puny, and many of todays BBers competing at the ameteur level would have been very formidable pros in the days of old.Quote:
Originally Posted by cannibal
My take on it has a a number of different viewpoints. First off I think these days there are really a lot more "amateur users" (i don't know this for a fact just an opinion). What this means to me is that many of the people aren't professional bbers but they have careers, jobs, families, and are only doing this as a hobby. This means that they strive to obtain maximum efficiency with their training and cycles. What this amounts to is that cycles are run at higher doses but during that limited time the person tries to gain as much as their body will allow (this as opposed to a pro who might be in this "maximum state" year-round). Of course pros today are on year round and run insane doses, but for the purposes of this discussion we are considering past bbers such as Arnold.
Another factor that comes into play is pure genetics. I don't think anybody will argue that Arnold had amazing genetics to begin with. Basically this meant that he could be in incredible shape without huge cycles (or probably any for that matter). Back then, I'm willing to bet, you really couldn't be a professional bber without this prerequisite. Today there are a lot more people using drugs to push their bodies beyond what their genetics will allow, instead of simply as a supplement to it. This ends up requiring much higher doses and more intense cycles.
Finally I think just the general idea of what a bber is has changed. Personally I prefer the Arnold look to that of the newer top class bbers, nevertheless today the goal is aimed more at being "freakishly" big as opposed to having just a good body. So over the years the envelope has just been pushed further and further until now people are using huge cycles and gaining incredible mass. Do I think there's anything wrong with this? No not at all. I think any person, as long as they research what they're doing and are mature about it deserves to work towards the body which he wants. If you want to be a beast, go for it; if you want symmetry and definition, aim for that, just do so with good judgment and responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shortie
What he said.:wg:
older shit was alot stronger less watered down, alot of ama bb's today that i know personally dont diet really strict because they use gh
amatuers today are bigger then alot of pro's back then, keep in mind alot of pro's then had near perfect genetic's , casey viator, Arnold, Columbu, Olivia, but with gh an average person can surpass their genetics, Theres alot more bb's today then before
I think it has ALOT to do with underdosed gear...... I would say prolly 80% of us here use either UG or mexican vet gear.....which we all know isnt the best.
No it had not , but ignorance is bliss, alot people do not bother actaully researching b4 they cycle , and by there second cycle there up to 800 to 1000 mg of test weekly . the more cycles u rn over time at higher dosages the more u will need the next time ,
ur body has this hormone called shbg wich it releases to counter the over abundance of andorgens . it binds to the ar receptor , making ur gear less and less effective , as u will notice why ur gains slow down as ru cycle goes on , its prat of ur body going into homeostasis. another part of it the upregualtion of cortisol receptors , which is also to counter gains , ur body knows something is wrong when it just gained 20 lbs in 8 weeks .
now , shbg ,levels take forever to go down ,so there still elevated when u go on ur next cycle.. which u will have to increase ur dose to see resaults..proviron and stinging nettle root is good way to lower them a bit . and keeping cortisol levels in check is important aswell , and the can be done with , 7OH , 7 keto-dhea , phosphatadylserine, and 3 grams of vit C. with shbg levels down ur gear is allowed to bind to the ar receptor alot more effectively.
shbg levels though can only be elevated so much , so thats why they say when u ur at about 2 grams of test and over the magic happens , since it tottaly over powers shbg levels .by no means am i condoneing maga dosing , i am just passing along studys that i have read .
conclusion , people really do not know how to train and have there diet in check , they see no gains cuase there diet went to shit , and they are over training . so they increase the dose , to try and get resualts , then more and more .....and for the long time gear users , that knwo what there doing and need to up there mgs as time goes by the studys that i have written above are pretty much right on.