My vist to the doctor...

**ECKO 747** · 05-13-2002, 05:12 PM

Well I just came back from my Doc... I orginally went in for two reasons:
1. Check my lower back (I've had some minor back pain) and
2. Talk about sauce...

Ok well the good thing is that there is nothing wrong with my lower back (my muscles must be sore or its something that a little physio couldn't fix) thank god!!!

But when the conversation turned to steriods ... The picture changed...
My doc (a sports doctor mind -you)... made me feel like the SCUM of the Earth for taking them.... When I asked if he would at least monitar me (Liver, Blood, test level etc...) he just politely tried to conceal his disgust and said NO (his reasoning is that he would be supporting me in an illegal and more importanly immoral endevour)....

Basiclly the guy made me feel like a drug addict, skid-row piece of shit..
I though doctors were supposed to be supportive and non-judgemental.

**samoth** · 05-13-2002, 05:16 PM

Get a second opinion... or third... whatever is needed. You will find one to help you sooner or later. As long as you dont ask them for steroids ...

**ECKO 747** · 05-13-2002, 05:19 PM

I never asked for a prescription.... I just asked to be monitored....
I mean the guy didn't even want to discuss my cycle with me, or any other aspect dealing with steriods

**PERSIANBOLIC** · 05-13-2002, 06:32 PM

He sounds like a closed minded doctor, I would change doctors and then call him and tell him very politely why he lost your business, maybe then he will think twice when someone comes to him for help.

**hitmeoff** · 05-13-2002, 06:38 PM

What a dick!

Is it even legal for a doctor to refuse service? Maybe you can sue him for medical malpractice.

**Canes4Ever** · 05-13-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by ECKO 747
Well I just came back from my Doc... I orginally went in for two reasons:
1. Check my lower back (I've had some minor back pain) and
2. Talk about sauce...

Ok well the good thing is that there is nothing wrong with my lower back (my muscles must be sore or its something that a little physio couldn't fix) thank god!!!

But when the conversation turned to steriods ... The picture changed...
My doc (a sports doctor mind -you)... made me feel like the SCUM of the Earth for taking them.... When I asked if he would at least monitar me (Liver, Blood, test level etc...) he just politely tried to conceal his disgust and said NO (his reasoning is that he would be supporting me in an illegal and more importanly immoral endevour)....

Basiclly the guy made me feel like a drug addict, skid-row piece of shit..
I though doctors were supposed to be supportive and non-judgemental.

Ecko 747

I know how you feel bro, same thing happened to me when I asked my Dr. about it last year. That's why it took me another 10 months to get the courage to come on this board.

**Mighty Joe** · 05-13-2002, 07:27 PM

One thing I have found out since my education in AAS world is: Most Dr's know so little about steriods thats is almost a joke! Doctors treat a symptom and mostly are not concerned about the cause and prevention is not a part of their vocabulary. Now I know there are exceptions but they are too few to make a difference.

Get another Doc bro! MJ

**Dr Roidenstein** · 05-13-2002, 07:29 PM

My Doc has taken roids in the past. When I first went to see him (moved house so needed a new doc), he first said it was no problem to run tests for me and stuff.

Later he changed his approach and kept making remarks like "you're not taking anything are you?" when he ran tests. I could see that either he was uncomfortable about possible side effects, or the Government had put pressure on him to actively discourage roid use when talking to patients. I know he is unwilling to prescribe any anti-e's as this gets monitored and he'd have to explain it.

Hell, even when I get a prescription filled my Medicare number is logged so they can tell how much I got of any drug, and which doctor prescribed it. All they have to do is run a report for steroids and up pops a list of patients - and even with HIV patients they won't be allowed to get more than whats needed for their treatment.

George Orwell must be laughing in his grave

**TNT** · 05-13-2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by hitmeoff
What a dick!
Is it even legal for a doctor to refuse service? Maybe you can sue him for medical malpractice.

First, the doctor cannot be sued for malpractice. He or she has just as much a "right of conscience" as, say, a physician who is oppsed to doing abortions (another medical area in which there is a diversity of opinions).

Is the doctor a dick? Not necessarily. He is obviously a doctor who is conscientiously opposed to becoming involved with anabolic steroids in any capacity. No more, no less. Your solution is quite simple: Find another doctor who is not so opposed to AS - they are out there.

For those of you who have taken philosophy in college, remember Joseph Fletcher's Situation Ethics? Fletcher's theory is that if something is bad, it becomes good when it is done for a good purpose. Go back to abortion for a moment. Assuming abortion per se is bad, take the case of an ectopic pregnancy, in which the embryo becomes lodged in the fallopian tubes rather than moving on to the uterus. The situational ethicist would say that abortion, being medically necessary for the life of the mother, becomes good. Most other people would say that it's still bad, but it's the lesser of evils.

To take an example closer to AS, look at the needle exchange programs found in several large cities, in which drug addicts may bring their used needles/syringes in and exchange them for new ones. The situationalist would say that passing out needles to drug addicts is good (insofar as it helps prevent infection and the spread of HIV, keeing in mind that many addicts share needles); the realist would say that contributing to drug abuse is not good, but it is the lesser of evils because it can help prevent infection and teh spread of HIV.

A truly hip physician would realize that you, a bodybuilder or weight lifter, are going to use AS regardless of any moralistic tap dancing he or she does. And a realistic physician would, at the least, recognize that keeping your health at optimum levels is important enough that they should at least monitor your levels andn provide you with realistic advice - facts, rather than the type of crap that was spewed in the classic cult film Reefer Madness.

But for one problem: Most (yes, not many, but most) physicians are not literate when it comes to anabolic steroids . This is not the type of thing that receives major coverage in medical school, at least from the perspective of weight lifting. You're delving into an area that is new to most doctors, so it's no wonder that many of them will not want any involvement that they feel contributes to your use.

So face it and move on . . . to another physician. Don't expect to find one that will prescribe anything that is AS-related for you (including Clomid, Nolvadex , or Arimidex - most doctors will check out the clinical indications for these drugs in the Physicians' Desk Reference and reject the notion of going outside the box by prescribing them for AS-related goals). But do expect to find one, perhaps after some trial and error, who will at least monitor your labs and present you with clinical feedback (but not an endorsement of your activities) to the best of his or her ability.

**Tedmax195** · 05-13-2002, 07:35 PM

again as usual you have a very well thought out answer thanks for adding to the dicussion , i'm always curious to hear what your views are on things.

**hitmeoff** · 05-13-2002, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by TNT
First, the doctor cannot be sued for malpractice. He or she has just as much a "right of conscience" as, say, a physician who is oppsed to doing abortions (another medical area in which there is a diversity of opinions).

Is the doctor a dick? Not necessarily. He is obviously a doctor who is conscientiously opposed to becoming involved with anabolic steroids in any capacity. No more, no less. Your solution is quite simple: Find another doctor who is not so opposed to AS - they are out there.

For those of you who have taken philosophy in college, remember Joseph Fletcher's Situation Ethics? Fletcher's theory is that if something is bad, it becomes good when it is done for a good purpose. Go back to abortion for a moment. Assuming abortion per se is bad, take the case of an ectopic pregnancy, in which the embryo becomes lodged in the fallopian tubes rather than moving on to the uterus. The situational ethicist would say that abortion, being medically necessary for the life of the mother, becomes good. Most other people would say that it's still bad, but it's the lesser of evils.

To take an example closer to AS, look at the needle exchange programs found in several large cities, in which drug addicts may bring their used needles/syringes in and exchange them for new ones. The situationalist would say that passing out needles to drug addicts is good (insofar as it helps prevent infection and the spread of HIV, keeing in mind that many addicts share needles); the realist would say that contributing to drug abuse is not good, but it is the lesser of evils because it can help prevent infection and teh spread of HIV.

A truly hip physician would realize that you, a bodybuilder or weight lifter, are going to use AS regardless of any moralistic tap dancing he or she does. And a realistic physician would, at the least, recognize that keeping your health at optimum levels is important enough that they should at least monitor your levels andn provide you with realistic advice - facts, rather than the type of crap that was spewed in the classic cult film Reefer Madness.

But for one problem: Most (yes, not many, but most) physicians are not literate when it comes to anabolic steroids . This is not the type of thing that receives major coverage in medical school, at least from teh perspective of weight lifting. You're deling into an area that is new to most doctors, so it's no wonder that many of them will not want any involvement that they feel contributes to your use.

So face it and move on . . . to another physician. Don't expect to find one that will prescribe anything that is AS-related for you (including Clomid, Nolvadex , or Arimidex - most doctors will check out the clinical indications for these drugs in the Physician's Desk Reference and reject the notion of going outside the box by prescribing them for AS-related goals). But do expect to find one, perhaps after some trial and error, who will at least monitor your labs and present you with clinical feedback (but not an endorsement of your activities) to the best of his or her ability.

A doctors first priority should be the health and well being of his patients. Taking a "stand" and refusing to simply monitor a patients health whether or not its during a cycle is a violation of that idea. This doctor puts his own personal biases infront of his medical duty, as far as Im concerned, that makes him a dick. End of story

**hitmeoff** · 05-13-2002, 07:48 PM

And it may not be a law, but law seldom related to ethics. Most of us on this board should be familiar with the differances between law and ethics

**TNT** · 05-13-2002, 07:56 PM

hitmeoff, if it helps clarify things, I have taught both law and ethics at the graduate school level, notwithstanding that I'm more than twice your age.

This is not a philosophical debate, bro - let's not turn it into one.

And that is the end of the story.

**ripped_82** · 05-13-2002, 08:00 PM

A doctors first priority should be the health and well being of his patients

I completely agree. There job is to look out for your well being. Thats what they get paid for, not there personal opinions. I understand that they have to be opposed to them, however, when someone is going to do them, and is asking for a doctor to monitor them to prevent things from occuring and they no, then they are allowing there personal opinions effect their patients health

**hitmeoff** · 05-13-2002, 10:00 PM

Obviously

I cant aregue against anyones personal views, however when one takes on the profession of being a doctor, one usually agrees to take care of his patient to the best of his abilities. Thats the nature of the profession.

H

Originally posted by TNT
hitmeoff, if it helps clarify things, I have taught both law and ethics at the graduate school level, notwithstanding that I'm more than twice your age.

This is not a philosophical debate, bro - let's not turn it into one.

And that is the end of the story.

**ECKO 747** · 05-14-2002, 03:09 AM

First off I got say thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread,
I orginally wrote it up to let off some steam, but since then I I've been get back some excelent feed back from both sides of the issue....
I've made my decsion to find another doctor... But the only problem is that if I do get another Doctor who is just as judgmental as the one I have, then i fear that i might have to go ahead with my clycle without supervison or just postpone the whole matter...
--- The only issue for me here is, that I don't want to end up feeling like some low life for making a personal decsion (that affects and concerns only me)... The last thing I need now is someone who barely knows who I am to pass judgment on me b/c they are either mis-informed or closed minded...

In my opinon a closed minded doctor is one who does not provide the best possible service and assistance to his/ her patients because they leave thier both thier patients and thier own options closed and thier opporunties limited.

**TNT** · 05-14-2002, 04:47 AM

I know I said that I was not interested in debate, but here's a freebie - from the perspective of one who has taught many doctors...

Steroids are illegal, period. Unlike my abortion example - something that is legal under Roe v. Wade, there is no constitutional right to shoot AS into your bod.

It is a fine point, but there are good doctors and bad doctors, competent ones and incompetent ones, honest ones and sleazebags. And before I had a doctor who would kiss my testosterone -injected butt, I would want one that was a great diagnostician and who would give me sound, competent medical advice.

As I mentioned, there are physicians who will assist you in the testing and monitoring process, but they are not in the majority. Hell, there are also physicians - a very few - who may even prescribe stroids to you if you do not have a legitimate medical reason for them, just as there are physicians who will prescribe Oxycontin without a legitimate medical reason (hence the number of prosecutions we are now seeing against such physicians).

Guess what, kiddies - physicians do not owe you squat. You are informing your physician that you are doing something illegal - remember, some steroids are Schedule III drugs, in the same class as opiates and amphetamines. Physician-patient confidentiality notwithstanding, many doctors choose not to participate in that activity in any way. Their job, if anything, is to convince you not to do AS.

In the mind of a physician who does a tap dance to convince you not to use AS, he or she is looking after "the health and well being" of the patient. And ultimately, if you are going to use AS, you are the one who has to take responsibility for it - indeed, most people who use AS do, in fact, do them without medical supervision.

If you can find a doctor who will monitor your levels and who is not a medical whore, go for it - they are out there. But don't think that any physician "owes" it to you to provide an impramateur for your AS use.

When it comes down to a choice of doctor, I'd rather have one that knows how to competently treat a heart attack if I ever have one, who knows how to diagnose a condition that I might acquire, and in terms of my AS use, someone who knows what he is talking about. (And my guess is that the physician under discussion in this thread doesn't know about steroids in the first place. Which means, by nature, that he wouldn't even know what tests to order. Whether y'all like it or not, 'Roids 101 is not a course in medical school.)

For what it's worth, the main reason I am able to have specific tests done is that I write up my own lab work orders. That's because my physician is aware, thanks to a relationship of many years, that I know what I am doing and will not abuse that privilege. (And fortunately, he does know about AS and is also a competent doctor.) But this all happened via trial and error, and takes place a minority of the time.

Some of you know more than your own physicians about anabolic steroids. (And some of you just think you do.

) Look around, and you can find a physician who will monitor your levels. But don't freak out if some physicians go through a moralistic tap dance about AS - maybe the guy had one or more patients who didn't know what they were doing and had negative medical consequences. I"m not trying to make an excuse for the guy, but as far as whining if a physician is not willing to participate in your "program," get over it - it's part of the game. The ultimate responsibility rests with you.

The only physician who "owes" you, even in terms of treating you at all, is the one in the emergency rom if you screw up. Legally, no physician has to treat you for anything - he or she can refer you to another physician at any time. So if your physician doesn't want to treat you (again, for anything), look around for another one and don't stomp the ground in what is no more than a fruitless display of whining.

**XBiker** · 05-14-2002, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by ECKO 747
Well I just came back from my Doc... I orginally went in for two reasons:
1. Check my lower back (I've had some minor back pain) and
2. Talk about sauce...

Ok well the good thing is that there is nothing wrong with my lower back (my muscles must be sore or its something that a little physio couldn't fix) thank god!!!

But when the conversation turned to steriods ... The picture changed...
My doc (a sports doctor mind -you)... made me feel like the SCUM of the Earth for taking them.... When I asked if he would at least monitar me (Liver, Blood, test level etc...) he just politely tried to conceal his disgust and said NO (his reasoning is that he would be supporting me in an illegal and more importanly immoral endevour)....

Basiclly the guy made me feel like a drug addict, skid-row piece of shit..
I though doctors were supposed to be supportive and non-judgemental.

Time to find a new M.D.

**REM** · 05-14-2002, 08:44 AM

i agreed to HITMEOFF statement the doctor will take care of his patient to the best of his
abilities period, however you have to remember
if the doctor sees the offer "risky" he can
refuse such treatment or and can tell you to wait
till he finds info about it, been a doctor does
not mean he has the knowledge and they r familiar
with AAS specially ANIMAL GRADE, this is one of
the MAIN reasons why some doctors react crazy
by telling rightaway NO then the person will say
WHAT A DICK right, anyone will get up set but
you have to understand their position they can
get their license "REWOKE" or can get a "FINE".
There is always ONE available willing to DO IT.

**B-A-M-F** · 05-14-2002, 10:07 AM

If the doc feels that you are putting your body in harm there is no reason to regulate you. he would be helping you to put harm into your body and to do it illegally. if it was legal for you to take as then yes the doc can and should help you. you dont see heroin patients asking docs to moniter them do you, or crack heads or any other druggies for that matter. im in no way putting juice in catagories with those drugs. i am simpily stating that it is a drug as with those other drugs. the doc's job is to help you, not to assist you in illegal endavors. JMO

**silverfox** · 05-14-2002, 10:14 AM

Dr. don't keep up with times.... my wife is having major throid problems, so the Enco. Dr... proceeds to tell her that free t3 doesn't matter only free t4 if t4 is normal metalism is normal.. what total BULL SHIT, her free t3 was .8 with normal being 2-5 range. Most dr. are very very ignorant about these types of things.

**hitmeoff** · 05-14-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by B-A-M-F
the doc's job is to help you, not to assist you in illegal endavors. JMO

That pretty much sums up my entire argument. Never once have I said a doctor should prescribe gear. Only tell you "Hey your blood work came back, and I think you should worry about this" or "Your blood work is fine."

Again, Im not confusing whats legal and whats not. Im not confusing what a doctor has the right to do, with what a doctor should be doing. If a crack head overdoses, then he is rushed the hospital where he is taken care of. The hosiptal makes no moral judgement on whether the guy should live or die, they simple treat him as best they can. Even if they know nothing about crack, they do know something about cardiac arrest, high blood pressure, and any one of the many symptoms associated with a crack overdose.

It doesnt take a graduate level course in steroids for a doctor to give you basic information on your vitals. And thats all I'm saying.

You can argue that steroids are illegal, you can argue that doctors, under law, have a right to deny someone basic care. Im arguing neither point, I fully understand them. Im arguing a different point, Im arguing the SHOULDS and not the IS

**hitmeoff** · 05-14-2002, 10:40 AM

Ok, Im over this, lets move on

**jamotech** · 05-14-2002, 04:04 PM

I actually just talked to my doctor myself. I have always been honest with him, why, because he has never got personal with me and sounds like your doctor did. He obvoiusly told me that advised against it and dosent condone it, but he knows im an adult and hes not my father, hes my doctor so he gives me advice I seek from a doctor. He has agreed to monitor my levels, but only because I already do that anyway(thread-how much is too much). I also told him that I study anything im thinking about doing, im not going into this uneducated. Basically I agree that if he gives you an attitude and refuses help its wrong. His intentions are good but I think he has gone over his boundaries as a doctor. He can tell you up and down that as is not for you but when he turns his back to you he is not helping you anymore. You should tell him that his way of helping you will make yourself and others scared of telling their doc about things which isnt right in any school of thought.

**Thorazine** · 05-14-2002, 04:28 PM

Isn't one of the oaths a doctor takes is "Do No Harm"?

By not helping, isn't he possibly DOING harm?

Doesn't this violate his oath?

Thorazine

**BodybuildingMD** · 05-14-2002, 07:56 PM

The doctor is not obligated to do something he believes is wrong. He should not be judgemental and make you feel like crap but he is not your slave and required to do whatever you demand. He can refer you to other doctors and should treat you in a respectful manner.

**REM** · 05-15-2002, 06:00 AM

i agreed with bodybmd totally correct bro.
honest no bullshit but when i talked to my doctor
i asked him that i wanted to gain weight seriously
he offered T100, then he instructed me on how to do it, ofcourse i knew more than him regarding
how to do it but it wasn't the point at the moment what i wanted to do first was gain trust which
it happen during my cycle, he gave 50mg first
week till we reached 600mg, i allowed him to do
what he though was right for me i open the doors
so that both could gain confidence which we did
and now i'm telling how i want my 3rd cycle to be
done at first he didn't want to inject EQ do to the fact that's animal grade but now i have no
problem.....