Short ester test .vs. Long Ester for cutting

[SPIKE]

According to the title it seems to be a no brainer, but let's throw a curveball into the scenerio. We'll take portions of one of my past cycles as an example.

When running a cutting cycle I have always used Prop as a base and an elaborate amount of anabolics. Now if running about 800mgs of Primo I typically run 600-800mgs of Prop. But to do that with Viromone amps that would be 12-16cc's of oil. Using any 100mg/ml prop would still have you shooting 6-8cc's plus other compounds. That's not the problem nor the question but good to keep in mind for what I"m about to say.

I havent seen too many run long ester tests for a cutter for obvious reasons of "kick in" time and water retention. Now what if someone ran 2-3 shots of Test E (250mg/ml) alongside an Anti????? Has anyone ran let's say a Test E for a cutting cycle? I understand that diet will control a lot of this. I'm trying to focus more on the point of the positive gains from the long ester. Not looking for critiquing on the cycle, soley personal experience with long esters for cutting cycles.

[KeyMastur]

yes, people tend to favor the shorter esters for cutting cycles, but....

how much you slim down while depends on your diet / cardio regimen during your cycle. i tend to trim down no matter what substance i take.

also with the prop you'll retain less water....

[SPIKE]

yes, people tend to favor the shorter esters for cutting cycles, but....

how much you slim down while depends on your diet / cardio regimen during your cycle. i tend to trim down no matter what substance i take.

also with the prop you'll retain less water....

Thanks for the input KeyMastur!!! I think this is a topic that should be further discussed. I always read these peoples cycles using 600-800mgs of Prop when a simple 2-3cc's of Test E would add the same amount of test. Now water retention is a biggie that why I'm hoping for some input from others that have done this...................

[mkrulic]

the only hormone I've found that helps with cut is trenbolone and I get better results from the acetate then the hex or enan. but like dude said it boils down to diet.

[powerliftmike]

Testosterone by itself is almost never used for cutting. Test will be used as a base in cutting or bulking. Short esters are preferred for cutting and long for bulking, but the only real reason is estrogenic buildup. Taking an AI like ldex or letro with a long ester would thus make it suitable for cutting too. It doesn't really matter which test ester you use.

[goose]

Good thread Jay.I have only ran test pop and Andriol for cutting,and only would run these for a cutter,they act fast and produce little water,and I run short cycles,so for my aim these do the job best.

You certainly could run test E in a cutter,however,this is more suited for the people who run long cutting cycles.I know one crazy guy who does this,he runs test e around 600,runs a very high dose of Primo,throws Var for the first 10 weeks and brings halo in for the last 5 weeks.Runs this around 20 weeks!!!!

goose4..............

[SPIKE]

Taking an AI like ldex or letro with a long ester would thus make it suitable for cutting too.

Great input Mike!!! Thank You.


This is exactly what I wanted to know from people. Hopefully some can chime in that have done this before.

[SPIKE]

,he runs test e around 600,runs a very high dose of Primo,throws Var for the first 10 weeks and brings halo in for the last 5 weeks.Runs this around 20 weeks!!!!

goose4..............

Wow 20 weeks.................My typical cutters are 12 weeks or so. Obviously as I mentioned in the very 1st post, diet will control everything here. But I love to see what people have tried and what worked and why..............

[Pinnacle]

Jay-

The cycle I came off recently was a mock cutting cycle for the comp next year.I was tinkering with diet,plus switching anabolics quite a bit during the cycle.Strickly experimental.

Cycle lasted 14 week.Test E was my foundation Testosterone for the cycle.It also included EQ/Fina/Drol/Masteron /HGH/IGF/Slin/and suspension the last 4 weeks.Went from 11% BF to 5% BF on that cycle.
The last 5 weeks I included Nolv and l-dex.I held very little water throughout the whole cycle.

So yes,you can use long ester testosterone for cutting.It's all in the diet!!!Most cutting cycle are 12 weeks anyway.At least serious ones,so why not use a long ester test to reduce ED shots?

~Pinnacle~

[SPIKE]

,so why not use a long ester test to reduce ED shots?

~Pinnacle~

GREAT!!!!!!!!!! Personal feedback from one of AR's best. This is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Great input Pinn!!!! It's appreciated by myself and I'm sure many others.

[Xtralarg]

I have used test e in a cutter along with eq, tren a,letro and nolva.......i did change to a short ester(test prop) with proviron and masteron for the last 5 weeks.Looking back i feel that i could of carried on with the test e and achieved very similar if not the same results as i did changing to prop......its just hard to do what doesnt seem right........

[SPIKE]

its just hard to do what doesnt seem right........

BINGO!!! That was my main reason for posting this question.


Thanks for the personal feedback XL!!

[Xtralarg]

In addition i will add that the 'old school' methods are becoming more and more outdated........we can get away with using long esters and still cut due do letro,ldex etc.........years ago when i first started they were virtully unheard of . Also the avalibility of HGH can only help the situation further!!

[orosco]

I will never use Enan or Cyp again..I hate the long esters period. They dont do anything but make me look like shit..Prop however makes me look very hard and I will only use that during a cutting cycle. EQ is considered a long ester right? It takes forever to kick in, but I think Eq is a very good long ester...
I just stick with prop and Eq because my hair is falling out. So until I decide to bic it I have to stay away from Winny and Tren , which I love..UGH.

[tempbrit]

I always use Test C or Test E for all cycles including cutters. I find that I can get nearly the same results as with prop as long as Letro or L-Dex is used to keep the water down. Diet is key and I also believe if you lag off on the cardio, water can build up as well. I am looking for long term fat loss and am not overly concerned if I carry just a bit of water during cycle. I know that I will only look better when the water drops off.

[SPIKE]

I think Eq is a very good long ester...

The reason I wouldnt use EQ in a cutting cycle is that I typically run 12 weekers. EQ takes so long to kick in, at times I dont see anything from it till weeks 6-8, and that's with running 600mgs a week+.... I'd supplement the EQ for something else. For a lean vascular look as people look for with EQ, diet will control that and with the aid of Primo,winny,Tren even var would be more benficial. But as you stated, you hair is of major concern so those compounds would not apply to you.

[MASTER]

with the correct ancillaries, pretty much any cycle can become a cutting cycle. I personally used to love sust for cutting and bulking, i just added adex to the equation to keep the bloat off.

[SPIKE]

I am looking for long term fat loss and am not overly concerned if I carry just a bit of water during cycle.

Hey Temp what are your stats?? I"m trying to concentrate on cutters that will put you in the lower single digit BF% range (5-7%).

[SPIKE]

with the correct ancillaries, pretty much any cycle can become a cutting cycle.

This is what's becoming the main arsenal to really keep that water off. I was curious to see the ratios people were going to give on holding water even when running and AI. Seems to be minimal which is great.

I like the feedback people giving. Really good thread, thanks!!!

[Booz]

great thread jay,most back up to what we spoke about yesterday with the longer actin test with ancillerys to keep the bloat off,i take it this thread has helped you decide???

[SPIKE]

great thread jay,most back up to what we spoke about yesterday with the longer actin test with ancillerys to keep the bloat off,i take it this thread has helped you decide???

My decision will come forth in about a month or 2. But comparing 12cc's of oil to 2cc's seems to be a no brainer!!! I"m very strong willed with my diet so know that will control the major focus of my body. This past summer I got down to 5% with the aid of prop and a couple of other things. I'm sure some Test E and L-dex I wont have a problem getting there again.

[stocky121]

i think with an AI test e or c would be just as good as prop for cutting i don't see why because you only hold less water with prop and the AI will make you hold less water

[Giantz11]

Mt decision will come forth in about a month or 2. But comparing 12cc's of oil to 2cc's seems to be a no brainer!!! I"m very strong willed with my diet so know that will control the major focus of my body. This past summer I got down to 5% with the aid of prop and a couple of other things. I'm sure some Test E and L-dex I wont have a problem getting there again.

Exactly how I feel. Even so after cutting you'll drop the water. Or add in an Ai and it won't be an issue.

[primetime1]

this is a great thread, has helped me out lots because im starting a cuttin cycle wich includes test e for 12 weeks. i see alot of ppl talkin about a dex. here, is nolv just as good for keepin bloat down?


hope this isnt jackin a thread.. and if it is.. sorry

[SPIKE]

I'm glad this thread helped you out, did the same for me. Nolv is good but Dex has been used by more to lessen bloat. I have used both and prefer the Dex as well.


You're not jackin', just trying to learn like everyone else..........

[heybud]

I'm 5'11 about 198lbs. and 12%BF and I'm starting a Cutting Cycle in January.
this is the cycle

1-7 Tren . 75 ED
1-12 EQ 800 Wk
1-15 Prop. 100 ED
8-14 Winny 50 ED
6-15 Proviron 50 ED

So my question is since I've heard that Prop. is a painful inject to most, and to reduce the amount of gear I'll be injecting, could I get the same results if I use Test E. with L-Dex throughout the 15wks? I don't mind the ED injections but wouldn't mind reducing the number though, I'm not really looking to gain much size just tryin to reduce BF and get cut!
Thanks

[*Narkissos*]

Water Retention is over-rated.

In fact... i think water retention assists while cutting. Before you call BS.. lemme elaborate.

Water retention allows one to maintain strength... Strength retention in the presence of a caloric deficit aides in the maintenance of muscle. More muscle post-cut is what we seek no?

Water can be dropped post-cycle.

[*Narkissos*]

True...some of the water-retention is due to an elevation of estrogen tru the aromatising of test.

True... the elevation of estrogen can cause fat-gain...and that'd contrast the the goal of cutting.

Conversely, estrogen can be anabolic ... re: estrogen: increased glycogen etc.

Thus...eliminating estrogen totally would be counter-productive.

Synopsis?

Long ester + ant-E + aromatase inhibitor

Good luck man..whatever you choose to do

[Hard Head]

Thus...eliminating estrogen totally would be counter-productive.

Synopsis?

Long ester + ant-E + aromatase inhibitor

Narc, I am confused. Are you saying that long estered test (ethanate?) + SERM (tamoxifen ?) + AI (letrozole ?) doesn't elimnate estrogen and is appropriate for cutting without holding alot of water? I thought Letro would almost kill all estrogen. Are you talking about smaller than normal dosages? What about the timing of these compounds as I thought the letro took 8 weeks to stabilize in your system. Straighten me out please.

[IBdmfkr]

Pretty much everything has been said, Although I am about to run a cycle with both short and long esters at different times, so keep an eye on my log and we'll see what happens

Great thread btw Jay, you got some excellent responses.

[SPIKE]

Great thread btw Jay, you got some excellent responses.

This was a great thread. It's threads like this that we al can learn from.


I too will be using both long and short esters in my next cycle. Since you're starting first you're going to be recieving a lot of PM's from me BD

[IBdmfkr]

....

[IBdmfkr]

Ohhh Great! hahaha j/k No prob. You know your my boy! Prepare to watch me grow.

[Vegas67]

I have got a buddy thats has a phd in pharm that juices and has talked about this exact debate about esters in test.... he feels that with anti e s ...why take prop. I will get him to post as I feel this is very good subject.

[SPIKE]

I have got a buddy thats has a phd in pharm that juices and has talked about this exact debate about esters in test.... he feels that with anti e s ...why take prop. I will get him to post as I feel this is very good subject.

Awesome! Any additional info is always appreciated and most importantly helpful...............

[ODC0717]

Dosen't anyone remember "Dry Sust", .55mg/ml arimidex .
If water retention is the main concern then take an AI and keep your diet clean and be done with it. I know that I bloat like a baloon when using cyp or enth. Now, using an AI takes care of this issue rather nicely for me. I like prop just because it kicks in so quickly.

[magic32]

Water Retention is over-rated.

In fact... i think water retention assists while cutting. Before you call BS.. lemme elaborate.

Water retention allows one to maintain strength... Strength retention in the presence of a caloric deficit aides in the maintenance of muscle. More muscle post-cut is what we seek no?

Water can be dropped post-cycle.

Fantastic thread Jay.

Nark,
Personally, I think it is contingent upon individual goals. As a competitor, your philosophy is obviously desirable, as one would want to peak for a show. But as a recreational user, I don’t see significance in waiting for 3 months to see, and thus present my cutting accomplishments. Even though the end result would logically usurp any results during process, why not enjoy the trip?

And as Jay once put it, "...being able to appear leaner with my shirt off for my 3 month summer."

M.

[SPIKE]

Personally, I think it is contingent upon individual goals.

I do as well Magic.

What Nark proposed makes total sense. You want some estrogen in there as it will produce gains (if regimented properly). His goal(s) seem to be oriented around shows. My goals are much different, I try to stay healthy and look good on a daily basis. Nark could easily keep some of that estro in there and drop almost all his water 2 days prior to showtime. I for one want to keep water down for the entire cutting cycle as I want to be able to wash my Osh Kosh Jammies on my abs. That and be able to $hit on everyone in a 1 mile radius when at the beach.

I really like this thread b/c we're getting some great input from some very good members on their point of views. From their past experiences to their future goals. That why I love this board so much. Who needs a hug?

[*Narkissos*]

bump!

[Giantz11]

Actually Nark, that late great Nandi used to comment on Estrogen's positives Fat burning effects. I will never use prop, there just no point. The water can be prevented ot dropped towards the end of the cycle and with Prop's propensity for painful shots and the sheer frequency of shots I'll stick with a longer ester any day. Let me see what I can dig up about estrogen and fat loss.