Thread: short cycles/ long cycles
12-28-2005, 11:06 AM #1
short cycles/ long cycles
I would like to start a discussion about peoples experiences with long cycles vs short cycling,
As alot of people know i am a firm believer in short heavy shock cycles the late Paul B theory, i dont know if you all know who Paul B is so here is alittle background -
paul's has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, top pro's ask Paul for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was Dorain Y who was under Paul's arm durring his Olympia battles,
now his methord is only for the advanced bodybuilder and the dosages are very extreme i am talking about dosages what some people would take in a week taking in a day, but at this level i believe and i know short cycles as little as 30 days work, "something magical happens" Paul told me when your on 5grams a week, your receptors sites up-regulate and you respond unbelieveably, you can put on 1lb a day for 18 days, ive seen it and done it,
now this will shock a few people but even using long ester with this method works aswell as short acting compounds, lets be honest with ourselves weather your on a 8wk or 20wk cycle when do see most of the gains appear? why stay on long cycles damaging your body with sides? and we all know how hard it is to recover from long heavy cycles, your body gets use to anything you put in it over time and will compensate, ive done every type of cycling and one of the best was short cycles for 30 days heavy, off period for 21-25 days and repeat the process, it far better on your system for recovery and building muscle tissue, its impossible to keep gaining new muscle for long periods like 14-20weeks,
The body can gain large tissue gains for short periods of time but it cant keep maintaining this for weeks on end, it is possible to gain a 1lb a day for 3 wks but it cant for lets say 14 weeks , this is nature and we can learn from it,if your advanced enough and you know how to combat the side effects this is amazing way to push yourself past any sticking point into new growth, if you have the right enviroment for the body it will have rapid fast growth which can be otained by this methord,
also its not just the gear and cycling what makes this work its the training and diet what comes with this method which also helps a great deal in the process, you can mentaly get ready for this methord and put 100% into everything 24hr dedication for 30 days but impossible to keep this type of intensity up for weeks on end, alot of pro's use this method and i could chat all day on various other things concerning this type of cycling but i would like to hear peoples experiences who have used this or know anyone who has,
12-28-2005, 11:08 AM #2
12-28-2005, 11:13 AM #3
i have only used 12-24 week cyles the 24 bein the once,so i for one would like to hear others responces who have run the short but high dose method!!
12-28-2005, 11:25 AM #4Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
when you use gear for long periods of time you body gets use to it the end result is you have to keep increasing the amount each time and even bridge between cycles just to remaian the same as when you was off gear, it gets harder and harder to build new muscle tissue because of this process, ive spoken to Paul and top level pro's who have said its a far better way of cycling it builds muscle and you recover alot easier,
people get blinkered into thinking long cycles are the key,its not always the answer trust me as you get more experience you will understand about how hard it is to recovery and keep building new muscle, it should be looked at and not swept under the carpet, alot of BB's are doing this method at top level
12-28-2005, 11:27 AM #5Anabolic Member
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Ive only run a short cyles once, but I really liked it. tren 100mgs ed+ winstrol 100mgs ed for two weeks. I gained and kept 4-5 pounds of pure muscle(maybe not a massive gain, but for only two weeks the gains were greate), and hpta was back to normal very quikly. I will do more of this kind of cycling in the future. The days of 14 weeks on test e. type of cycling is dead and gone for me! If I was going to run long cycles again it would consist of compounds like primo/eq/proviron /t-bol/winny and var, aas that will only supress you, but not shut you down!
12-28-2005, 11:31 AM #6Originally Posted by marcus300
12-28-2005, 11:36 AM #7
12-28-2005, 11:43 AM #8Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
all the best
12-28-2005, 11:47 AM #9Originally Posted by marcus300
12-28-2005, 11:52 AM #10Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
am confident in this theory..
12-28-2005, 11:56 AM #11
I prefer to frontload heavy esters and then run the cycle 9-10 weeks...
But I never really heard much about large, sorry - HUGE, doses for short periods... sounds interesting and something I might try. But 5g's per week is way too much androgenic activity - it seems you'd have to have A LOT of muscle weight/receptor availability for that much to even get used without shaking the risk:benefit ratio to undesirable effects...
I wouldn't try it with more than 1500mg per week (I'd have to see a lot more supporting evidence before going toward 2g's in a short cycle) - but these days, I never usually cycle over a gram of total androgens per week while on...
Many believe longer cycles help to solidify your gains by giving the body enough time to set it's comfortable body weight to the new mass... assuming the body does seem to reach set points in bodyweight that it tries to maintain. The problem is that longer cycles are harder to recover from, and I do believe the body does try and regulate itself after a given period of time - such as increasing the amount of SHBG or via other endocrine or metabolic processes... the human body would never naturally expose itself to the amount of steroids that are typically self administered for performance reasons... so its not completely obsurd to think it would try and counter act the activity...
Might want to dig through this FULL abstract i posted at the end of this thread yesterday: Hypertrophy IS Dose Dependent
12-28-2005, 12:08 PM #12Originally Posted by Warrior
with out doubt your body struggles to keep building new muscle tissue after years of long cycles and the recovery is harder still, we end up coasting and increasing the amounts all the time just to try and keep the edge, i value your imput but like ive said its worth a good look alot of top BB's are using this method with amazing results
Last edited by marcus300; 12-28-2005 at 12:10 PM.
12-28-2005, 12:22 PM #13
This is a LONG discussion.
The body has a point of Muscular Homeostasis. As I discuss in my article "Overlapping Chemical Displacement", this point can be constantly RESET, by several different mechanisms--Most importantly, maintaining PITUITARY function even when testicular function is severely depressed, and OVERLAPPING chemicals at strategic points during your cycle.
It is one thing to GAIN--it is another thing to RETAIN your GAINS. One must approach anabolic steroid use with a scientific fervor.
Based on all variables that determine GAINS AND RETENTION of gains(Pituitary/testicular function, points of overlap during cycle, and selection of compounds/dosages/durations, one can conclude that:
#1) EXTREMELY Short cycles are ineffective, as they do not allow the body to RESET it's point of Muscular Homeostasis. Furthermore, they require FOOLISHLY LARGE DOSAGES, which is UNSAFE. Retention of gains is POOR.
#2.) EXTREMELY LONG cycles are ineffective as they inihibit BOTH--the PITUITARY and the TESTICLES too severely, which makes retention of gains post-cycle near impossible.
#3) Depending on the compounds/dosages/durations used, one can STRATEGICALLY minimize BOTH--PITUITARY and TESTICULAR supression through the various mechanisms discussed above, allowing for SIGNIFICANTLY greater retention of gains post cycle.
**HCG is ESSENTIAL!!**
Last edited by Rossosterone Nation; 12-28-2005 at 12:55 PM.
12-28-2005, 12:40 PM #14Originally Posted by Rossosterone Nation
results and my own experiences are what i base everything on not what it might say in a book, i disagree with no1, you can build hugh new muscle tissue on short periods, this is how humans grow even from birth, we have growth spuirts and it can be maintained, its not just gear its diet/training what goes hand in hand with this type of cycling, intense short cycles do work and can be maintained
Last edited by marcus300; 12-28-2005 at 01:49 PM.
12-29-2005, 05:51 AM #15
bump, lets keep the discussion going
12-29-2005, 06:18 AM #16
I may well try this at the end of next year, so i cant get 2 cycles in, since my other one is a 30 weeker. As for 5 grams as week i dont think so! Maybe 3gs or so, i definately think suspension or prop are the way to go though with this, I really cant see how deca or longer estered tests could be as effective, sure frontloading can work, but it still wont kick in as fast as suspension or prop. From what ive seen though, the 1lb per day probably is possible, your body cannot sustain this kind of anabolism for long though, as the principle of this technique is to flood your receptors and therefore the drugs will become ineffective very quickly, a friend of mine who uses these principles all the time, says he gains massively for 2 or 3 weeks, but after this time, gains slow down and stop very quickly. It should in theory be quite easy to recover from such a cycle, but the androgenic sides could be awful, people without considerable experience should adjust their doses down and all precautions to keep sides away should be used! Thanks for the information guys, it is very interesting, I think its one of those things that really has to be tried to draw a conclusion for it yourself.
12-29-2005, 06:34 AM #17Originally Posted by JamesC
also re-read about fast/long ester, one of the theorys is long esters for the first 10 days so then they are out at the end of the cycle, please re- read all the article the answers are there,
12-29-2005, 06:38 AM #18Originally Posted by marcus300
12-30-2005, 06:37 AM #19Originally Posted by JamesC
12-30-2005, 07:02 AM #20Originally Posted by marcus300
12-30-2005, 07:15 AM #21Banned
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These are great books by paul.
I can assure people these cycles work,they are Avant-Garde,but you must be open minded or maxed out your genetic ponetial to consider executing paul`s ideas.Great to have fresh ideas on this forum.In 06 I will be experimenting with 15 day cycles,some of paul`s earlier work,the idea is recovery is super swift, even if tren is used.
12-30-2005, 07:21 AM #22Originally Posted by goose4
12-30-2005, 09:50 AM #23
Questions for those of you who have read his theories:
- Do you need to first follow some kind of receptor mapping idea to find what dose you should use?
- Is the gear best used with combinations of heavy and light esters - or all of one or the other?
- Does GH have to be used in this?
- Where else can I find extended articles explaining both the 15-day and 30-day cycles online... the steroiduniversity.com link does not work for me...
Thanks! This has me thinkin'... didn't Bill Roberts like this idea too? Only with smaller doses...
12-30-2005, 10:21 AM #24Originally Posted by Warrior
if you want an example of one of paul's course i will post it for you,
yes he took hgh but in a different way took it in spuirts just like babys produce it, he aso primed his whole body to respond to this 30 day stack,
and infact with such an intense way of training after the 30 days your body is craving to grow and can produce even more gains in the off period while you do maintenance training for fully recover the body,
12-31-2005, 07:05 AM #25
12-31-2005, 09:30 AM #26
This short cycle/shock cycle sounds very similar to what L Rea writes about in "Building a Perfect Beast". His dosing protocol samples vary but some are as high as 1000 total mg per day of aas. Cycles are short at 30 days with a full PCT regimine of about the same. He claims, with case study, that you will retain more and recover quicker with short cycles and more successful cycles can be run in one year. I have a contest coming up in the Spring so don't want to try anything new but I will try a short cycle sometime in '06.
12-31-2005, 10:00 AM #27Originally Posted by cgb6810
thanks for your imput
12-31-2005, 10:09 AM #28Member
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12-31-2005, 10:13 AM #29New Member
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Marcus, give us an example of the gear you would use and for how long, and the PCT protocol you'd follow.
12-31-2005, 10:36 AM #30Originally Posted by thermodave
days 1-10 testex (cyp) 500mg
days 11-20 400mg primo+ 500mg prop
days 21-30 150mg winstrol + 500mg prop
HGH 4 days on 8ius 4 days off
will be messing around with a few more compounds yet but thats roughly
01-03-2006, 06:07 AM #31
This is nothing new in Europe. All competing top level bodybuilders I know do this.
Not only is it a bit more cost effective, but it's also more productive IMO.
01-03-2006, 06:13 AM #32Originally Posted by Toenail Juice Z
thanks for your comment
01-03-2006, 06:20 AM #33
I'm only stating the facts anyhow!
01-03-2006, 06:22 AM #34Originally Posted by JamesC
01-03-2006, 06:31 AM #35Originally Posted by Pinnacle
01-03-2006, 10:11 AM #36Originally Posted by marcus300
If someone could come on the Net and tell everyone they should run 10 grams of testosterone per week for 24 week cycles 'cause "thats what the pros do" - and every one said, "okay... sounds good to me!" then you should be frusterated at how gullable and impressionable people are on the Net...
I have never heard of this type of steroid cycling before - but I am interested in more reading on it...
01-03-2006, 10:27 AM #37VET Retired
Originally Posted by Marcus300Originally Posted by Marcus300
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For a man who has all these credentials (impressive to say the least) he sure as hell got AAS binding affinities and how the androgen receptor works dead wrong. Perhaps he missed that class?
Can i see these 'medical juornals'? Muscle mag doesn't count.
01-03-2006, 10:31 AM #38Originally Posted by Warrior
i am not giving medical advice, all am saying is that short heavy cycles work ive done them and alot of top pro's aswell,they might not be for everyone just like long cycles arent for everyone, but in bodybuilding we should look and learn and not just dismiss it, i am NOT saying use 10grams of test, the amount you should use depends on your cycle history and previous stacks, i thought that was obvious,
over the 17yrs ive been in the game all i can give is my experiences what worked for me, there is no black and white when it comes down to chemicals and the body, experience is priceless, do a search on Borresons work or buy his books or videos they are worth a read,
01-03-2006, 10:36 AM #39
I've done both long cycles ( well over a year) and short cycles, and my personal experience says that anything over 18 weeks is a waste and not worth the risks. My cholesterol was out of control. I will NEVER do a cycle over 16 weeks again. I did NOT see that great of benefits over 16-18 weeks. I even upped the doses to 2g a week. I ran just about everything during that time frame and still wasn't impressed.
01-03-2006, 10:48 AM #40Originally Posted by BUYLONGTERM
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