** Paul Borresen's short cycle thoery **

[Warrior]

Fukin' great post mmaximus25! I agree with everything... especially the need to address other issues when simply increasing the amount of blood androgens - like your coments on an a severe increase in calories and it's impact alone on the body. I don't think I would try this until I could say I had a better understanding on the impact of superphysiological levels of androgens, extra high calories and metabolism... I won't toot my own horn and say I already know everything I need to - I'll be the first to say I still have much more learning to do...

Are you suggestnig that T3 should always be used on heavy cycles with heavy calorie intake to help the body's metabolism better partition the calories?

Good to have you back!

[Drummerboy]

The following article was written by the late Paul Borrenson. .
'Nuf said.....

[Drummerboy]

Fukin' great post mmaximus25! I agree with everything... especially the need to address other issues when simply increasing the amount of blood androgens - like your coments on an a severe increase in calories and it's impact alone on the body. I don't think I would try this until I could say I had a better understanding on the impact of superphysiological levels of androgens, extra high calories and metabolism... I won't toot my own horn and say I already know everything I need to - I'll be the first to say I still have much more learning to do...

Are you suggestnig that T3 should always be used on heavy cycles with heavy calorie intake to help the body's metabolism better partition the calories?

Good to have you back!

im not sure but i remember something about T3 being needed when on HG and slin, with, say, test and tren in a high dose regimen. Cant remember why, but t3 gets depleted or something.... its foggy... think there was a mention of it in bolic's 2005??

[Drummerboy]

As I've said to warrior in PM long ago I've learned from him and others hear by going back and readjusting my androgens and anabolics according to half-life. I truly belief now that the point of reaching a near full serum level for a longer period results in a more mature growth process. So what is the point these days if you don't reach full serum level or what would be considered full serum potential? I’d also like to add I am not the typical BB’er I call myself simply an athlete with a heavy right and left upper cut that cuts. I do not compete nor do I want to. If I had better genetics and sought to earn an income as a Pro BB’er I think I’d go with tried and proven cycles per my friends that complete before I would try the above. Please don’t take this as a rant I’m just long winded

The above 18day or 30 day stack is far more complex than I originally thought but still leave me with the same questions and personal opinion.

#1. With the addition of metabolic enhancing drugs such as T3 which effect your thyroid I would say 3weeks on 6 weeks off is the best cycle but there’s no reference to the admin of it above. Anyway, you are much more effective in digesting a larger amount of calories the kind of around 4k-6k when taking T3, L-carnitine, etc. and a whole slew of other metabolic enhancing drugs, minerals, vitamins and aminos. This leaves me thinking… I wasn't successful in my past reaching 4-6k cals ed with out high fat and high starch... even now I can only stomach (no pun intended) high calories if they are rich with fat. all clean cals, let me tell you be prepared to shit and be uncomforatble and have unconscience farts rendering you mate unconscience also)
I remember the article touching on diet and how good it needs to be. That’s not good enough for me. There are so many issues with weight training and poor dieting, most are poor at dieting to begin with... this article makes it sound like oh and good diet is a must, as if it’s some what simple.
Tangents gotta lovem.

#2 even with the use of T3 and the ability to digest and break down nutrients and the obvious amount of androgens you still won’t reach a high serum level of the longer esters. Maybe this is apart of the plan but I would raise the question why not use orals, mix with a test suspension and propionate utilizing a higher serum level through shorter esters. You will have full serum level in a matter of days. So it seems that the half life to me is serving as some kind of let down process (taper) as if you are going into a bridge (all very complex, further more doing all of the above article, more closely the insulin mixed with all the drugs I've never researched... would scare me without having someone to manage it for me or help).
The article goes on to say he would most likely roll into a 6 week low dose (problem is that portion is not stated with the 18day cyc). I have a problem understanding this portion because with my understanding of up and down regulation of target sites/cells this seems hindering in your over all mega-dose… either you are mega dosing or you are not. When I took close to 4g of test and deca a week I did so for over 8 weeks I guarantee you I would be singing different praises if it would have been prop for 8 week at 2g wk.

My spit:

1. The diet is not that easy, and even the most experienced guys will have trouble with a 6-9k clean diet. In order to support any where near the amount of androgens you’re talking about there will need to be a huge over all calorie intake. (I don’t care how much you spend on your gear but you’ll waste even more not being able to match you nutrient, androgen to metabolic expectation ratio) I find it truly hard to believe those calories will be clean. I also can say if there is a plateau that anyone has reached I believe there are far better methods at getting past it than the above. Things as simple as cycling your T3, insulin and IGF-1 with large amounts of rich fats starch and solid proteins. No shake compares to double cheese burgers every 2hrs and eating 3lbs of beef a day along with 1 to 1-1/2 , 5lb bags of red potatoes(about 15-20 potatoes) with 2-3 heads of romaine lettuce…. Ohh, ohh not done 6-12 eggs before bed. Try that on I guarantee you will be amazed literally you will shit on your self. Thats 7k in cals with only the beef and potatoes not to mention the cheese burgers and lettuce, eggs (That diet is not a joke it also is a straight forward intermediate to advanced BBer diet, add nolvadex , T3, clen , R-ALA, Vitamins, glutamine, tuarine and the rest branch change aminos and we now have a simple yet serious anabolic atmosphere minus the androgens… Then begin your androgenic /anabolic cycle after beginning your diet) I’m going to sound like a broken record through out this whole F&^king thing but forget about adding androgens till you master the art of eating…. but for real eatting.)


2. Undoubtedly there is a significant amount of waste created with that amount of gear stated and food that is needed above. Your digestive system will need an above average of fiber. The tricky part here is because the use of T3 and insulin are involved you will have the ability to down right eat a horse and use a good 75-80% of that 4k-6k calorie intake but I don’t see the diet being atop the alter only the cycle theory.
3. There are a whole slew of drug mentioned that personally I have never taken nor do I know exactly what they do. Hint. I don’t take anything unless I have an understanding of what and who thinks this is what this drug is used for.
4. There are so many variables with the above it’s so hard to pinpoint each but I’m getting a feeling this is one of those if you take enough something’s bound to happen feelings. I can say this I would like to kick my self for wasting my money on juice I never really used. Ex. 400mg enanthate for 20weeks, 1g cyp 15weeks or 2g a week for 4 weeks your serum level will be higher longer with the first two, allowing you to benefit from the from a good diet and hard training. If 4weeks then why not 2g prop with provirion, nolvadex and HCG . I have a problem and straight don’t like the idea of long esters short cycles.

5. I don’t agree with the androgen type per period taken. Even if I agreed with the whole cycle I wouldn’t use those long esters. 18days that’s less than three weeks meaning you’re getting the highest serum level after your last shot then on into a bridge. Why? Why not be closer to 85-90% serum per androgen if the mega dose is going to be less than three weeks (I might have misread something but I still see 18days and deca and enanthate in the stack)


6. Remember the higher amount of androgen the faster your body will try and remove the foreign substance. Your body as a negative feed back response will undoubtedly realize there are unneeded amounts of hormones and along with your helpful metabolic enhancers begin converting/removing the hormones. Your estrogen levels will be high so I see how liquidex and armidex is a must.
7. Ok here’s the thing If this is in effort to break a plateau it could be done with a drastic change in diet along with a 10 week mega dose extended into a down regulation 10-15 week dose cycle. Tot****g 20-30weeks where you up-regulate due to the amount of androgen introduced then a planned down regulation of target cells. I can’t stress enough that your anabolic atmosphere starts with the amount of calories you can use not the amount of androgens. I could see 2 to 1g a week of propionate for 10weeks then change your androgen to a suspension mixed with that propionate (if someone replies but that will hurt I’m going to point out the above is stating located sites at 2.5ml per site 4 times a day every day) Prop doesn’t hurt, if it does it’s the little girl inside you trying to get out.


8. Warrior touched on a second avenue… That I will add onto. If you what to experiment with mega doses do it with short ester so you can get out of trouble if need be. Experiment with front loads but extended a little Ex w1-5 2g prop, w1-10 1g cyp, 1-15 2g deca, 1-5 50mg d-bol, 12-15 winny, fina or halo.
9. I have mixed feelings because I feel I may not have read the full article, It sounds like too much is missing and the avenue along with the amounts of food/ gear aren’t presented with any purpose, other than hey don’t knock it till you tried it. If I ever post my scripts I will undoubtedly give my logic behind the dosing as well as how I propose to intake the number of calories I suggest.
10. What was the point of this again? A big guy getting over his plateau. I still have to note every one should realize that most armature BB’ers take much more that the veteran pros. There is a level of maintenance that I believe most over look. Once you attain a particular size yes it is harder to add large amounts of skeletal tissue but with drugs like IGF, insulin, T3; along with a short burst of mega doses with in a longer overall cycle can get most over any hump. I think the trick is finding your optimal dose and then experimenting with doubling that for a 5-6wks get off for 5-6 weeks using T3, IGF, HCG and a high calorie diet while off then repeat all year.

11. I also need to add there aren’t that many pros that have the type of genetics that call for such drastic measures as the above.

wow. that was one hell of a response.

[Warrior]

im not sure but i remember something about T3 being needed when on HG and slin, with, say, test and tren in a high dose regimen. Cant remember why, but t3 gets depleted or something.... its foggy... think there was a mention of it in bolic's 2005??

I have been looking into this... here is what I have for now... (I got some inserts from Sustanon and Testoviron laying around I can also reread later...)

"In addition, AS use may affect thyroid function. Administration of AS has been found to decrease thyroid stimulation hormone (TSH), and the products of the thyroidthyroid binding globulin (TBG). These changes reversed within weeks after discontinuation of AS use." SportSci.org

So... if AAS use (especially at high doses) would cause an inhibitory effect to thyroid then... what would a hypothyroid condition due to us? Read on...

"What are the most common symptoms of hypothyroidism? Usually the hypothyroid patient is characterized as being slow, dull, obese with dry skin, requiring a lot of sleep. The patient may also be of the opposite extreme. Coldness is the most prominent and absolute symptom, a result of the decreased metabolic rate. If a patient's hands are cold or cool in an inappropriate setting, that patient is hypothyroid. Hypothyroid patients may be overweight or underweight; have dry or oily skin with acne in the latter instance; have dry or oily hair that may be fine or coarse; have reduced intelligence or be very intelligent; have insomnia or hypersomnia; have constipation or spastic gut; bradycardia or tachycardia; absence of sweating or hyperhidrosis; and any of the following diseases." RM Alford, MD

Apparently, if thyroid levels are left at a decreased level... we can see changes in bodyweight (possibly another reason AAS cycles eventually lose their effectiveness???), oily skin and acne (on top of the effect of androgen receptors in the skin - this could get really out of control), cause sleep disturbances (extremely common while on cycle!), hyperhidrosis (waking up sweating on some deriatives is very common - especially trenbolone )...

Thyroid replacement therapy seems more than appropriate for someone venturing into an increased weekly AAS burden on the body... but how much thyroid is needed? Overcompensation or "normal" levels?

[marcus300]

Info on short heavt cycles - Short heavy cyles explained- PB theory

[mmaximus25]

Info on short heavt cycles - Short heavy cyles explained- PB theory

Marcus I read your thread. I do believe in the short mega dose cycle but the ones I've seen from what I understand have more purpose than the way that 18day was written out. The mega dose of 500mg -1g a day of the longer ester were in the first days of the week then it looks like a shift into shorter esters for a remaining 2-3 weeks at 500mg-1g ed. (The script I'm referencing is only AS and didn't include what amounts of GH, slin, or any other metabolic reacting drug)
I'd like to understand the theory more than anything. Even if it’s regurgitated. I view the breakdown of the longer esters has some reasoning that I don’t get or am ignorant of.
I said it before... the endocrine system is like outer space and up-regulation has never been measured but I think we can all agree that everyone’s body does the best it can to accommodated the amount of androgens it’s subjected to.

These are my real questions.
1. If a short mega dose cycle, then why not all short esters/acting of test and test derivates.

2. What is the theory behind the longer esters reaching a higher serum level after the last shot? Does this have to do with a method of administering HRT then into PCT?

3. is the cycle above missing some important info, it sound like it to me?

I can’t help but through my bro into this… but watching someone with average genetics, I agree that short planned heavy doses seem to produce the most gains in a short period of time. I theoretically disagree with the androgen type. I can only understand if I tried both theories one my way then the other. (I don’t think it’ll be happening anytime soon)

I have never done a true mega dose cycle, the highest I've ever gone was 4g a week and I went from roughly 205/210 to 240... The true weight gain was right at a solid 10lbs that has never gone away. I can imagine if I did that twice a year there is a possible 10-20lb gain a year maybe more if the cycle was even more intense. I do however believe that even after a mega dose cycle an individual can just get off and conclude with PCT. The need more HRT then into PCT.

After reading your thread I realized your comments are very much warranted. Your cycle history is the only way you can derive what your personal mega dose will be. This discussion is going to cause a beginner to jack him self up.

[mmaximus25]

wow. that was one hell of a response.

Nah, I'm just long winded. You should hear me talk about something I'm passionate about... you might not get a word in at all.

I'm really friggin hyper but dont tell anyone

[marcus300]

Marcus I read your thread. I do believe in the short mega dose cycle but the ones I've seen from what I understand have more purpose than the way that 18day was written out. The mega dose of 500mg -1g a day of the longer ester were in the first days of the week then it looks like a shift into shorter esters for a remaining 2-3 weeks at 500mg-1g ed. (The script I'm referencing is only AS and didn't include what amounts of GH, slin, or any other metabolic reacting drug)
I'd like to understand the theory more than anything. Even if it’s regurgitated. I view the breakdown of the longer esters has some reasoning that I don’t get or am ignorant of.
I said it before... the endocrine system is like outer space and up-regulation has never been measured but I think we can all agree that everyone’s body does the best it can to accommodated the amount of androgens it’s subjected to.

These are my real questions.
1. If a short mega dose cycle, then why not all short esters/acting of test and test derivates.

2. What is the theory behind the longer esters reaching a higher serum level after the last shot? Does this have to do with a method of administering HRT then into PCT?

3. is the cycle above missing some important info, it sound like it to me?

I can’t help but through my bro into this… but watching someone with average genetics, I agree that short planned heavy doses seem to produce the most gains in a short period of time. I theoretically disagree with the androgen type. I can only understand if I tried both theories one my way then the other. (I don’t think it’ll be happening anytime soon)

I have never done a true mega dose cycle, the highest I've ever gone was 4g a week and I went from roughly 205/210 to 240... The true weight gain was right at a solid 10lbs that has never gone away. I can imagine if I did that twice a year there is a possible 10-20lb gain a year maybe more if the cycle was even more intense. I do however believe that even after a mega dose cycle an individual can just get off and conclude with PCT. The need more HRT then into PCT.

After reading your thread I realized your comments are very much warranted. Your cycle history is the only way you can derive what your personal mega dose will be. This discussion is going to cause a beginner to jack him self up.

Ive tried both ways of short cycling and i have studied many BB who have played around with long ester's and short, i can only give the results what ive found and experienced also its not just the gear its the priming,diet and training what goes hand in hand to make growth work.

when using a long ester in a short cycle normaly its done for around 14-18 days then its swapped to a fast acting compound, the results are very similar to using fast acting compounds, its all down to the amount of gear what is used what seems to bring results, ive said many times when short cycling one of the most important things to do is prime the body correctly, the results are amazing, growth is so fast and keepable.

Ive used short esters and for me and many others the results are very similar, its all down to knowing how your body responds to different gear and esters then you can decided which one to use, this is the whole thing you have to have a few years of experience and know how your own body responds.

What do you mean its seems to be missing something?

[mmaximus25]

Fukin' great post mmaximus25! I agree with everything... especially the need to address other issues when simply increasing the amount of blood androgens - like your coments on an a severe increase in calories and it's impact alone on the body. I don't think I would try this until I could say I had a better understanding on the impact of superphysiological levels of androgens, extra high calories and metabolism... I won't toot my own horn and say I already know everything I need to - I'll be the first to say I still have much more learning to do...

Are you suggestnig that T3 should always be used on heavy cycles with heavy calorie intake to help the body's metabolism better partition the calories?

Good to have you back!

Are you suggestnig that T3 should always be used on heavy cycles with heavy calorie intake to help the body's metabolism better partition the calories? Hell yeah bro.

I've realized so much over the last two years. We need help getting to a higher neutient untilization even with AAS, GH and slin. It's what most do wrong whether on or off. People use it in a cutting fashion... I'm not down with that. I say it should be utilized with large amounts of calories while on or off... not on any kind off calorie restriction diet. I am not experienced with GH and Slin so the metabolic effect I can't exactly talk about much less with the effect of, with the addition of T3.
Although watching one of my friends go about it... its hard to beleive with out slin and T3 how my bro can intake the amount of food he does if he weren't taking the two along with GH and AAS.

I really think T3 must be utilized after cycle also when your growth is directly effected by your after cycle calorie intake. Instead of dieting down so extreme you keep a fairly high cal intake for an additional 12 to 24 weeks adjusting fat/carb ratio... cycling your T3 in a 3wk on 6wk off method not going over 75mcg's. I actually would like to test out IGF-1 Lr3 with T3 by itself on a high cal diet as a PCT additive (but not utilized as in a bridge)

[mmaximus25]

What do you mean its seems to be missing something?

It looks like the diet portion isn't stressed the way I've been told. That your cal intake before you start your mega dose cycle is to be 2-3 times your normal. meaning 300-400g of protein, 600-800g of carbs (these being minimum ranges). I only know of a few people personally that truly understand the effort involed with consuming large amounts of whole food. The shakes and crap are additives, your whole food bulk is still to be at the min grams above.

Also, the bridge info or "low dose period" I think of it more of as apart of that cycles PCT really. Maybe I read it wrong but it appears right after the 18day you go right into PCT. I thought you are supposed to go right into a down regualtion period which would constitute the low dose period.

I have never read Paul's stuff or been told what I've heard being any one person's theory.

[marcus300]

If you read my thread there is loads of info on the priming of the body before a short heavy cycle, when this is done correctly you create a very anabolic enviroment for muscle to grow when you start the cycle and you introduce more calories.

depends on your cycle history if bridging is done or considered after such a cycle, personaly i like to come totaly off and get ready for the low dose cycle and prime

[Warrior]

If you read my thread there is loads of info on the priming of the body before a short heavy cycle, when this is done correctly you create a very anabolic enviroment for muscle to grow when you start the cycle and you introduce more calories.

depends on your cycle history if bridging is done or considered after such a cycle, personaly i like to come totaly off and get ready for the low dose cycle and prime

I understand your priming ideas about getting the body ready for the increase in calories and androgens but do you think that the short cycles are long enough to produce solid gains? Have you been able to hold on to these quick increases in strength and size? Seems the body would need some more time to increase its new bodyweight comfort zone... I think that will be your biggest speculation here...

Whats else do you suggest in this short AAS smack down? Any ancillaries while on?

[marcus300]

I understand your priming ideas about getting the body ready for the increase in calories and androgens but do you think that the short cycles are long enough to produce solid gains? Have you been able to hold on to these quick increases in strength and size? Seems the body would need some more time to increase its new bodyweight comfort zone... I think that will be your biggest speculation here...

Whats else do you suggest in this short AAS smack down? Any ancillaries while on?

Priming is one of the most important things you can do before you start a short heavy cycle, infact any cycle would benefit from such practise, Ive kept all gains far better than the other cycles i have done, when i run a average cycle trying to keep hold of the gains when you come off are very hard, overtime they have become more difficult to maintain, but when i look back over my cycle history and records ive gained more and retained far better on a short heavy cycle.

Like ive said on my thread the body can grow huge muscle tissue gains if the correct thing are in place, you have to know your own body and how it responds to gear, its impossible to carry on gaining on cycles what last for weeks on end, your body just gets use to it and stops gaining then when you come off its hard to maintain the gains because of the lack of hormones so bridging/coasting and hrt are the only option, your body gets saturated ive done far better and more or less all the studies ive done with many BB have stated short heavy cycling works better in everyway, i do understand its not for everyone but it cant be dismissed some top BB's use this process all the time.

A study of mine has just finished his cycle over 8 weeks ago,he did a 30 day cycle and he put on 18lbs and 8 weeks later he has retained 14lbs, his body is harder more cut and a visable increase in muscle mass, this subject found it hard to keep gaining on his normal cycles his body was really tired, but after a good priming we designed a short burst and the results are outstanding for someone at his stage. He is just stated priming again for another cycle in a few weeks time but it wont be a short heavy burst just a short very mild dose,you dont run then one after the other.

[Monte Brogan]

To All posters:

This is a quality thead. Well done.

Monte

[Xtralarg]

To All posters:

This is a quality thead. Well done.

Monte

[Herbster]

I have both of Paul's books. Some of the recomendations are a bit extreme for your average guy and are aimed at more of an advanced user (his second book is anyway).

[marcus300]

I have both of Paul's books. Some of the recomendations are a bit extreme for your average guy and are aimed at more of an advanced user (his second book is anyway).

PB's short cycles are not for the average user or first timer, only for the advanced BB.

[Wolverine1]

Thats right.... Don't knock it till you try it..... Lots of guys say to me "You should have seen me on my last course...! Problem is I can't see much gain left after long courses end....Up to a point, short courses give you better retention of size and strength..... Up to a point! Also short courses dont seem to affect your lipid profile as much.. But i must say ive never used doses that large....

[lovbyts]

Nice, first post and you bring up a thread that's 5 years old? Good use of the search feature but next time how about just reading and keeping it to yourself if it's anything over 6 months old unless it's really really relevant.

[ddp2727]

great post! I don't intend to try it anytime in the next 5 years but after that it certainly will be in my thought process. I just dont have enough experience with knowing how my body reacts to all the different gears out there.