Thread: HCG, Nolva and arimidex for pct?
12-30-2005, 06:11 PM #1
HCG, Nolva and arimidex for pct?
Well, I have posted about it a bit before, but now I need some final help on my pct and cycle. I am planning on a 12 week testo cypionate (I did not get the enanthate , is that bad?) @500mg ew. And I will run 11 week deca along with it @ 400 or 500mg ew. I will buy nolva for the whole cycle and the pct about 120 tabs @ 20mg. I will probably run 10mg a day after 3 weeks to be on the safe side.
What I wonder is, do I use the arimidex during the cycle or should I use it in the pct just like nolva? I could use .25 ed to prevent water retention the whole cycle? But if I use it for pct is it still .25mg ed, I know nolva I can start d1 60mg, d2 40mg and then 20mg for the rest 3w.
Then my final question, I want to be certain of my balls so I have choosen to add HCG for my pct. The question is, how much should I take of this, and in what quantities does it come? I know it is needle stuff, 2 fluids you mix and keep in the fridge. But some say you should use it 2 times a week during the whole cycle, and some say start 2 times a week after 6 weeks. It is really confusing and I would like it all straighten out. And how much when on the pct, I want the best effect and I would like to know how much I need for my whole cycle of 12 weeks so I don't come up short later in the cycle.
all help appreciated.
12-30-2005, 09:07 PM #2
12-30-2005, 09:59 PM #3Associate Member
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I used arimidex during my cycle and it worked great . I used it EOD, and never had a prob. HCg you can use 1 week after your last shot and I use it once a day until its gone. The HCG I got is a 10,000 I.U. bottle. You can shoot it either sub or intra-musclular. I prefer sub so all you have to use is a insulin needle. After the HCG is gone is when I am starting my Clomid. I can't help ya with the Nolva, I never have used it. Do some research at the profiles section for the diff. between the ethenate and the cyp. I think it is just the half life is different. Other than that they are the same compound, I think.
12-31-2005, 05:39 AM #4Associate Member
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12-31-2005, 06:04 AM #5Banned
Originally Posted by yom
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Post made by Pheedno of theironcorps:
My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles
PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex
Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:
1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis
12-31-2005, 10:23 PM #6
ok, thank's for the replies so far, I will get 4 amps of HCG @ 2500iu, will that be enough for my 12 week cycle? I should not use it in pct, some say I should only use it in pct, this is confusing? The source told me you can easily get gyno if you use it to much that's why you skip it in cycle, any feedback on that? I will also be getting 200 tabs of nolva wich should be enough even if I am gyno prone and have to take 20mg each day. One other thing, while I wait for pct after my last injection, do I keep taking nolva there to? and just keep taking the same amount thru the whole pct? Is that stuff enough for pct or should I get something more, it's a question of money now, I have everything and I can afford 200 nolva and 6HCG if needed. Then after that I would like to spend my money on good protein, maybe gainer, and glutamin, vitamin B6 and a good multi vitamin and ALA.
well, hope someone have a good answer for this
12-31-2005, 10:32 PM #7New Member
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- Dec 2005
hi need some help in my 2 cycle, i have i bottle of EQ 250 and one bottle of test 400 what's your advise in taking it how many weeks? and how many ml's in a week and for how long?
thanks in advance
12-31-2005, 10:48 PM #8
Well, first of all Then second, I am not the one to answer all this because I have to little knowledge. But if you create a new thread I know alot more will see your question and will be able to answer it better.
01-01-2006, 08:43 AM #9Originally Posted by TinTin78
Good job getting all your information together...
01-01-2006, 12:56 PM #10Associate Member
Originally Posted by dino66
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01-01-2006, 03:15 PM #11
Yup, Id go with A-dex on but that doesnt mean you cant take it post cycle. Prefer AI over SERM while ON.
01-01-2006, 04:41 PM #12Associate Member
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interest ing method of using letro pct but seems pricey . from what i have read i been told ari idex kills all esteroegeon in the body in pct. and to restore nat tests you need some estergeon floating around.
five 8 you are combining 3 estergeon blockers ,but for a poor man nolvadex is sufficient enough for pct .
what about if your were to one combound of either letro or arimidex and not including nolva or clomid for pct ?
01-01-2006, 05:52 PM #13
Well, I have choosen to not take clomid after reading and hearing alot about worse breakouts than on cycle. So my things I will get as for now is Nolva and HCG . I was still wondering if I should get letro to during the cycle? Then I have to order it soon because I start this cycle next monday.
01-01-2006, 05:58 PM #14
and if I get 10.000iu (2500iu each and 4 amps) of HCG that will last for 20 shots of 500iu each, and if I take e5d or e7d it will last the whole cycle. I would like some more input on the HCG use.
I will get regular needles for it to, but I read that it last longer in your system if you take it in the fat instead of muscle using special thin needles and pump. I think there is as many ways to use this as there are weightlifters out there and would like some different opinions that make sense.
I will be having trouble getting letro from my country but Arimidex is cool, but kinda expensive. I will do what is necessary so if I need all 3, nolva, A-dex (or letro) and HCG I will fix it. My goal is to avoid gyno at all cost and keep bloat away.
01-01-2006, 08:45 PM #15Originally Posted by TinTin78
01-01-2006, 09:49 PM #16
01-02-2006, 01:25 AM #17
someone must have some idea about this?
01-02-2006, 09:46 AM #18Associate Member
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People have told me that HCG is not good for PCT either. My HRT doc tells me the opposite. I have asked people in here why but nobody has responded. Basically use what you think is right for your body and if it doesn't work well, try something else next round. If you have access to all of that stuff, do research and pick something.
01-02-2006, 01:54 PM #19
I came across this when researching PCT protocalls. Very interesting read.
Pulsatile secretion of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus is required for both the initiation and maintenance of the reproductive axis in the human. Pulsatile GnRH stimulates the biosynthesis of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) that in turn initiates endogenous testosterone production and spermatogenesis as well as systemic testosterone secretion and virilization. Failure of this episodic GnRH secretion or disruption of gonadotropin secretion results in the clinical syndrome of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH).
The usage of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) may result in a functional form of HH known as Secondary Acquired Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and is diagnosed in the setting of a low testosterone level and sperm count in association with low or inappropriately normal serum LH and FSH concentrations.
In order to avoid any unnecessary confusion, it is important to understand what the actions of Gonadatropin therapy and Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are as well as how they differ from each other and more specifically, during post cycle recovery (PCT).
There is nothing more effective than Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG ). The action of HCG is identical to that of pituitary LH. This takes place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. Therefore, it directly stimulates a dramatic increase in endogenous testosterone production, spermatogenesis and testicular volume. The primary goal during the first few weeks of PCT is to quickly restore testicular volume and function. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the unfavorable "crash" effect. In the majority of individuals with larger testes at baseline, HCG alone is sufficient in restoring endogenous testosterone production as well at the induction of spermatogenesis which is most likely a result of residual FSH secretion. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added in combination to HCG.
*The addition of an FSH preparation is rarely required and is best suited for severe cases of HH. FSH preparations are not readily available to most individuals. Therefore, there is no need to go into details with respect to its application at this time.
HCG is administered by subcutaneous (SC) or intramuscular (IM) injection. The average (3ml 22-25G x ?-1½") syringe is adequate for IM injections but insulin syringes (½-1ml 28-30G x ½-1") are recommended for SC injections. In regards to effectiveness, there should be no discernable difference between either of the techniques. The individual should opt for the most comfortable and/or convenient form of administration.
The following is a description of the available preparations by Serono:
HCG ampoules are supplied in 500, 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 1 ml of sterile dilluent. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F) and should be used immediately after reconstitution.
HCG multidose vials are supplied in 2,000, 5,000 and 10,000 IU preparations accompanied by 10 ml of bacteriostatic water. It should be stored at a controlled room temperature (15-30 degrees C or 59-86 degrees F), refrigerated (2-8 degrees C or 36-46 degrees F) after reconstitution and used within 30 days.
Other manufacturers are available and preparations may vary.
The terms international units (IUs) can occasionally cause confusion when reconstituting and measuring HCG. The actual process is quite elementary and the concentration per ml (cc) is dependant on the concentration of the lyophilized powder and the volume of dilluent used for reconstitution. For example, if you dilute 5,000 IUs HCG with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end result is 500 IUs per ml (cc).
*Bacteriostatic water should always be utilized during reconstitution when long term (30 day) storage and multi dose administration are required.
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators:
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) such as Clomiphine (Clomid) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex ) increase pituitary LH secretion in secondary manner by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the HPTA. On average, this is not strong enough by itself to counteract the severe imbalance of the androgen:estrogen ratio that is encountered post cycle, especially in the presence of testicular atrophy. Therefore, SERMs are used during PCT primarily as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary LH after HCG has been discontinued.
Nolvadex is widely available in 10 mg or 20 mg tablet preparations and Clomid is available in 50 mg tablet preparations.
Before Beginning PCT:
It is highly recommended to establish baseline blood values before beginning a cycle. The same principle applies to establishing post cycle blood values, which are necessary for evaluating recovery. Post cycle blood work should be obtained approximately 4 weeks after the cessation of PCT in order to determine accurate readings. Additional blood work should be performed when applicable and/or required.
The following are Fasting blood values:
1. Cortisol, Total
2. Estradiol, Extraction
6. T3, Free
7. T4, Free
9. Testosterone, Total, Free and Weakly Bound
10. Hemoglobin A1C
11. Fasting Insulin
12. Somatomedian C (optional)
14. Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
15. Lipid Panel
16. GGT Important Liver Value not included in Comp Metabolic Panel
When to begin PCT:
On average, begin PCT approximately 5-10 days after your last injection regardless of longer acting esters. Begin PCT 1-3 days after your last injection and/or intake when using short acting esters.
Keep in mind, pituitary LH secretion automatically increases as the hormones diminish from your system. The elevated androgen levels are from an exogenous source and your endogenous production is suppressed. Therefore, waiting for the exogenous androgens to completely clear from your system, ultimately results in lower total concentrations of androgens in your system when beginning PCT. This leads to an unfavorable andgrogen:estrogen ratio and the well known "crash" effect.
*As previously mentioned, the actions of HCG take place independently and is not affected by exogenous hormones and/or preexisting HPTA suppression. There are no contradictions with respect to the effectiveness of HCG usage while exogenous hormones are present in your system.
1.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
2.) 1,000 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 3 weeks.
3.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
4.) 1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 100 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for the first 3 weeks. After, discontinue HCG and continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional 3 weeks.
Option one can be considered as a standard PCT protocol. This should apply to all basic cycles. Option 2 is generally the same as option one except for the addition of Clomid which is added as a supporting recovery aid. Option three and four incorporate a higher HCG dosage and have a relationship similar to options one and two in the sense that Clomid is incorporated in the latter as a supporting recovery aid.
*The majority of my experience is with intermediate to advanced athletes whom have completed multiple cycles with higher dosages. Therefore, based upon previous blood work results and considering the common or convenient preparations available, we have established that 1,500 IUs 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) to be the optimal HCG dosage to begin with. The Nolvadex dosage remains unchanged however Clomid is utilized throughout the entire PCT at 100 mgs ED during the first 3 weeks and 50 mgs ED for the last 3 weeks.
HCG During Cycle:
HCG in combination with Nolvadex can and should be used during prolonged (12+/wks) and high dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In this case, 500-1,000 IUs HCG ED in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7-10 days consecutively is administered mid cycle or intermittently (every 6-8 weeks) during the cycle.
Maintaining testicular volume during cycle does in fact improve recovery when compared to atrophied testes when beginning PCT. This solution addresses both testicular atrophy and prevention of Leydig cell desensitization (discussed next) associated with HCG usage.
Leydig Cell Desensitization:
Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.
The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.
Additional Factors That Influence Recovery:
Factors that may complicate and/or delay recovery are elevated levels of estrogen and prolactin. Both of these hormones, when elevated, exert negative feedback on the HPTA. Estrogen and its side effects can be controlled by using an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin , Femara and Arimidex during cycles including aromatizing AAS. Prolactin and its side effects can be controlled by using an anti Prolactin such as Cabergoline (Dostinex) or Bromocriptine (Parodel) during cycles containing nandrolones. If these measures have not been addressed during the cycle, they will more than likely need to be addressed during PCT. In this scenario, the objective is to lower these hormones to acceptable levels in order to avoid the complications and/or delay in recovery. Blood work is imperative in evaluating the effectiveness of therapy. This will provide a clear and concise answer in regards to the adjustment of dosages and continuation of medication if necessary.
*There are numerous studies which support and refute the association of nandrolones and prolactin. However, based on first hand experience and blood work results, there are far more individuals today whom can testify that the usage of nandrolones can attribute to an increase in prolactin concentrations. In addition, many individuals have reported elevated prolactin levels during cycles which do not contain nandrolones. The common factor within these cases is supraphysiological levels of estrogen. Estrogens act directly at the pituitary level by causing the stimulation of lactotrophs which in turn enhances prolactin secretion. This is another reason why estrogen management in the form of an aromatase inhibitor should be included with cycles containing aromatizing AAS. Although not absolutely necessary and considering the necessary restoration of physiological estrogen values, there is sufficient evidence which suggests that aromatase inhibitors can improve and increase recovery rates.
In some cases the aforementioned post cycle therapy protocols as well as those which are not mentioned may be unsuccessful in the restoration of homeostasis. This should not warrant immediate concern. Many endocrinologists have concluded that the only form of treatment in this particular scenario is hormone replacement therapy (HRT).
This is far from the truth. The reason many endocrinologists have come to this conclusion is due to the fact that very few of them have the experience treating severe forms of secondary acquired hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. They are unfamiliar with proper protocols which include high dosage HCG administration and additional gonadotropin preparations such as HMG or rFSH. This complication puts the patient at risk for potential and unknown side effects in the eyes of the doctor. Therefore, HRT is a reasonable solution since it will quickly alleviate the majority of the uncomfortable symptoms that the patient is experiencing.
Aside from disappointing blood work results which illustrate the typical signs of an unsuccessful recovery, the key physical indicator that the treatment is unsuccessful is testicular atrophy. In this case, HCG is continued with the necessary adjustments in dosage and frequency until an increase in testicular volume has been achieved. There is no one size fits all protocol since every case varies and deserves an individualized approach. Subsequent changes will be based upon the individual's response to each particular stage. All the variable factors involved during the recovery process need to be considered. It's far from accurate to reach the conclusion that HRT is needed if one specific recovery protocol is not successful.
Hypothetically speaking, if testicular function and volume have been maintained during cycle with HCG, SERMs are then utilized to counteract the imbalance in the androgen:estrogen ratio encountered post cycle as the exogenous androgens diminish. This results in the prevention of estrogenic side effects while increasing pituitary LH secretion which in turn increases testosterone production.
There is nothing wrong with using a commonly referred to protocol which recommends 250-500 IUs HCG 1-2x/wk to be incorporated throughout the cycle. However, a significant cause for concern in regards to this protocol relates to the cessation of HCG once the cycle has completed and from that point on, the only substances used during PCT are SERMs which consist of Nolvadex and/or Clomid. Realistically, there is absolutely no guarantee that this formula prevents testicular atrophy to the extent where the overall volume and function of the testes are in an optimal state. Unfortunately, a large majority of individuals do not realize or are not aware that Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur with prolonged or high dosage HCG usage. Therefore, users which follow this protocol whom do not incorporate Nolvadex or an aromatase inhibitor are now susceptible to Leydig cell desensitization which may render HCG usage post cycle ineffective when and if needed.
During conservative cycles, there is substantial evidence which exists that supports the effectiveness of the HCG during cycle and SERMs only post cycle protocol, especially when proper estrogen and prolactin management has been incorporated. However, this conclusion is much more difficult to achieve on heavy or prolonged cycles. Testicular volume should be maintained to an acceptable extent but that does not necessarily result in an improved recovery as severe HTPA suppression still exists which is not immediately repairable through the usage of SERMs.
The most common argument here when incorporating HCG during PCT is that HCG itself is suppressive. This is true and one particular way this occurs is though the constant binding of HCG which disrupts the endogenous pulsatile secretion of LH. A recent study which included the usage of 250 mcgs Ovidrel (rHCG) 2x/wk for 12 weeks demonstrated that the patients resumed normal HPTA function within four weeks upon cessation, without the usage of SERMs. What's even more interesting is that 250 mcgs rHCG is the equivalent of approximately 5,000 IUs uHCG. Therefore, putting things into perspective, a few additional weeks of suppression is nothing to be overly concerned about compared to and considering the 12 weeks of suppression incurred during the average cycle. The usage of HCG during PCT is a minimally intrusive variable where the benefits clearly exceed the associated costs.
PCT should begin after the last injection and/or AAS intake. More specifically, a relative guideline to begin PCT is within 5-10 days when using long acting esters or 1-3 days when using short acting esters. This PCT protocol should consist of 1,000-1,500 IUs HCG 3x/wk (mod/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED and, if necessary, 50-100 mgs Clomid ED. The mid/intermittent cycle protocol of 500-1,000 IUs HCG and 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for 7 days consecutively can and should be utilized when necessary during prolonged (12+/wks) or heavy dosage (1,000+mgs/wk) cycles. In addition, blood work should be performed before beginning a cycle and after completing a cycle in order to establish baseline values and evaluate recovery, respectively.
If recovery is unsuccessful, HCG is continued with an adjustment in dosage and frequency as necessary until the increase in testicular volume and function have been achieved which is unlike the more typical, yet incorrect belief that HCG is only to be used for a short period of time. Once there is a plateau in the response to HCG, treatment with an FSH preparation such as human menopausal gonadotropin (HMG) or recombinant follicle stimulating hormone (rFSH) should be added at a starting dose of 75-150 IUs on alternate days. This continual usage is not necessary and avoidable in most cases by utilizing the mid/intermittent protocol previously mentioned, but it is much more common and less avoidable with long term (1+/yr) users, whom have not taken the suggested preventive measures, and/or improper recovery from previous cycles regardless of which protocol is chosen.
With the usage of HCG post cycle, your androgens are elevated but well below that of supraphysiological concentrations from exogenous hormones. In addition, a noteworthy difference is that the effect is through a direct stimulation of testicular production compared to the secondary nature of SERMs in conjunction in the presence of testis that are not guaranteed to be in an optimal functioning state. Upon completion, blood work will display significantly higher levels of LH, FSH and testosterone in this environment which includes HCG and SERMs during PCT versus HCG during cycle and SERMs only during PCT. This ultimately results in a more comfortable as well as tolerable recovery both physically and psychologically. In conclusion, HCG should always be included during PCT in combination with SERMs regardless of what protocol has been utilized during cycle to prevent testicular atrophy, in order to achieve an optimal recovery.
The PCT i run is similar, slightly altered.
Run PCT with HCG, Nolva and Clomid after stopping HCG.
wk 1-3 HCG (Mon, Tue, Wed) 1000ius ED.
wk 1-5 Nolva 20mg/ED
wk 3-5 Clomid 100mg/ED.
wk 1-6 Trib 1g/ED
wk 1-6 Creatine 5g/ED
wk 1-6 Glutamine 10g/ED.
Some sort of ZMA supplement.
01-02-2006, 03:23 PM #20Associate Member
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- Jun 2003
That is a very good read. Thanks for the info.
01-03-2006, 02:26 AM #21Associate Member
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- New Jersey, USA
01-04-2006, 04:30 AM #22
There is so much confusing on this PCT shit so I don't know what to believe. It makes sense though to take 2 shots in the middle of the cycle, and then later to the end and none for pct maybe? I am gonna run nolva only for pct then as it is now except for B6 and ZMA and tribilus. But I maybe should have something else but I haven't gotten any recommendations. Letro, Arimidex ?
01-04-2006, 04:32 AM #23
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