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  1. #1
    boh
    boh is offline New Member
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    Pro Survey................Which is Better?

    I am looking at doing a beginners cycle and i am 35 yrs old and been training approximately 15 yrs using various training methods and systems (but always natural). I have been doing quite a bit of research (purchased books by Paul Borrenson and recently Anabolics 2005).

    My question revolves around doing short cycles versus long cycles. I have read several threads on this board (and others) that praise the benefits of shorter cycles and others on this board are vehemently against it!

    So the question is....Which is better for a beginner?

    1) a long 8-12 cycle of cypionate 500 mg/wk
    2) a 4 week cycle of propionate 100mg/ed

    Question 2: Why is one better than the other?

    (both of these cycles will be combined with the appropriate PCT....)


    thnks

  2. #2
    GrimmReaper's Avatar
    GrimmReaper is offline Senior Member
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    i would say #1

  3. #3
    MiZongMaster is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by boh
    I am looking at doing a beginners cycle and i am 35 yrs old and been training approximately 15 yrs using various training methods and systems (but always natural). I have been doing quite a bit of research (purchased books by Paul Borrenson and recently Anabolics 2005).

    My question revolves around doing short cycles versus long cycles. I have read several threads on this board (and others) that praise the benefits of shorter cycles and others on this board are vehemently against it!

    So the question is....Which is better for a beginner?

    1) a long 8-12 cycle of cypionate 500 mg/wk
    2) a 4 week cycle of propionate 100mg/ed

    Question 2: Why is one better than the other?

    (both of these cycles will be combined with the appropriate PCT....)


    thnks

    ED injections for a beginner can be a pain.. Let your body get used to it with the cyp.. Then for your 2nd/3rd, throw in something that required ed/eod injections.

    Also, I believe it is easier to keep your blood levels consistent with a long ester like cyp.

  4. #4
    j martini is offline Member
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    Cycle 1, short high dose cycle should be used as a way to shock your body and only be used by someone experienced with AAS. Just follow standard 8-12 week cycles till growth becomes more difficult, then start to incorporate more elaborate complex cycles which could invole a short high dose blitz cycle.

  5. #5
    tcw's Avatar
    tcw
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    LOL...most people on this board have never heard of Borrenson or his ideas of short cycles (in other words they don't read much from Europe). I have found that the Europeans will tout shorter cycles with short esters because the cycles tend to have less side effects. However, in the state...you will find more users doing longer cycles with longer acting esters (not because they are better...but more so because that's what they were exposed to).

    So...you will get answers like the grim reaper without an answer to why....just do it!

    LOL...."yeah baby...i'll do it because you say so!"

    I would say...they only way to find out...is do it and see how your body reacts.


    peace!
    Last edited by tcw; 01-03-2006 at 07:47 PM.

  6. #6
    thermodave is offline New Member
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    Excellent question boh, I have been debating this myself for the past few weeks. I have personally never tried a short cycle with relatively high doses, only the run-of-the-mill 10-12 week cycles which I find are difficult to recover from. I have found that the best gains are made in the first 3-6 weeks, and are only marginal after that. My next cycle will be;

    Week 1,2 Test E @900mg
    Week 1,2 Deca @900mg
    Week 3,4 Test P @100mg eod
    Week 3,4 Tren @100mg eod
    Nolva througout + PCT

    I'm hoping this will enable me to recover faster, and jump "on" again relatively quickly. Will post results as they happen.

  7. #7
    j martini is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermodave
    Excellent question boh, I have been debating this myself for the past few weeks. I have personally never tried a short cycle with relatively high doses, only the run-of-the-mill 10-12 week cycles which I find are difficult to recover from. I have found that the best gains are made in the first 3-6 weeks, and are only marginal after that. My next cycle will be;

    Week 1,2 Test E @900mg
    Week 1,2 Deca @900mg
    Week 3,4 Test P @100mg eod
    Week 3,4 Tren @100mg eod
    Nolva througout + PCT

    I'm hoping this will enable me to recover faster, and jump "on" again relatively quickly. Will post results as they happen.

    Yeah, thats fair enough but for a first time user i would still recoomend a conventional 8-12 week cycle.

    A beginner will grow much easier and will certainly not be comfortable with that amount of injections.

  8. #8
    boh
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    thanks for the responses...keep it coming.

    thermodave...i like that cycle...Are you going to give it shot (no pun intented)?

  9. #9
    thermodave is offline New Member
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    I'm going to try it for sure, although I may drop the deca and Tren ,and just run the Test E and Test P as I said in my post. I'm intrigued by this short cycle theory. We all know that long cycles work, however isn't the name of the game finding out how little gear we need to make nice gains? I'm 34 myself so I also have concerns about being "on" for longer than necessary.

  10. #10
    TheMudMan's Avatar
    TheMudMan is offline Retired~ AR-Hall of Famer
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    IMO 8 weeks isn't long enough for an long estered test like Enan, Sust, or CYP.

    first cycle with test (cyp or enan) at 400 to 500mg for 10 weeks is a great first cycle along with anti-e's.

  11. #11
    MASTER's Avatar
    MASTER is offline "I Own You"
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    Yeh go 10 or 12 weeks of test e 500mg is a nice dose!

  12. #12
    seattleseahalkjunkie is offline Junior Member
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    I agree with 12 weeks @500mg. I did 250mg every monday and thursday. That was my first cycle and I loved it. JMHO

  13. #13
    boh
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    thnks for the responses....

    On the 2nd cycle...i would probably hold it to 8 wks...since it will be my first cycle...and i don't want to deal with recovery issues and want to get over the PCT asap.

    Also...i believe i would split the 500mg of cypionate into 2 shots....every 4 days..

    keep it coming

    Shorter vs Long cycles....Why one over the other?

    Thnks

  14. #14
    scotttiger54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattleseahalkjunkie
    I agree with 12 weeks @500mg. I did 250mg every monday and thursday. That was my first cycle and I loved it. JMHO
    agreed... a great beg cycle

  15. #15
    boh
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermodave
    We all know that long cycles work, however isn't the name of the game finding out how little gear we need to make nice gains? I'm 34 myself so I also have concerns about being "on" for longer than necessary.


    Yep...finding the most efficient dose...with the least amount of side effects and recovery time....

    I'm with ya!

  16. #16
    Hazard's Avatar
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    i personally find it easier to retain gains with longer cycles..... 15+ weeks..... thats just me tho.

    My body needs to adjust to the new weight..... if most of my gains come by week 10-11..... i have a month to get used to the new added weight..... if not gain some more.....

    for a 1st cycle... recommend 12 weeks..... 500mg/wk Test E. 250mg's every monday and thursday.

    ~haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  17. #17
    boh
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattleseahalkjunkie
    I agree with 12 weeks @500mg. I did 250mg every monday and thursday. That was my first cycle and I loved it. JMHO

    How old are you Seattle? (if you don't mind me asking?)

    How was the PCT?

    How many weeks did it take to get back to Normal (test) range ?

    thnks

  18. #18
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boh
    How old are you Seattle? (if you don't mind me asking?)

    How was the PCT?

    How many weeks did it take to get back to Normal (test) range ?

    thnks
    I know this wasn't directed to me but i may be of some help.....

    My father is 44 and runs atleast 1 Test/Deca cycle every year..... usually like this.....

    test e or cyp - 750mg's/wk
    Deca - 500mg's/wk

    between 12 and 18 week cycles...... deca is always stopped atleast by week 12.

    He usually recovers within 6 weeks..... bloodwork hasn't proven he was 100% normal tho..... he's jsut going by how he felt. Usually the "guys" are back to normal by week 4 of pct or so.....

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
    - Knockout_Power

    NOT DOING SOURCE CHECKS......


  19. #19
    johnsiegal is offline Junior Member
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    Both forms of Test are going to have their drawbacks...BUT....I'm gonna go against the grain and recomend #2...and (unlike many who posted)...i'm going to give you a reason why #2 is better.

    Cypionate is a long acting AAS (as you know) and has an active life of about 14days. It commonly takes several days before any results start to kick in (meaning strength increases,size.etc). Drawbacks include: Gyno, water rentention and long recovery time (return to normalization where you produce your own test). Any side effects (acne,gyno,etc) would be felt for up to 14days AFTER your last injection.....PERIOD.

    Propionate is a short acting AAS. It is more androgenic and anabolic than all other AAS available (2nd to Suspension) and enters the circulatory system at a fairly rapid rate. That means within 1-2 days strength gains will be seen. And because its a short acting ester...you can discontinue it at the first signs of overt side effects. DRAWBACKS: Propionate hurts when you inject it. Most users cut it with grapeseed oil. Because, most beginners are sqeamish about injecting....propionate is difficult to use because it must be injected ed or eod to be effective...and it can only be used for a short period of time (unless you want to risk serious decrease in natural androgen production).

    Final answer: If you can take ed or eod injections of propinate...go with that. Get some grapeseed oil and cut it. This means you will be poking yourself between 15-30 times over a 4wk period (ouch). Many experienced users have a tough time with this. If you can't take the number of injections....use cypionate or enanthate with HCG /clomid.

    best of luck

  20. #20
    ludakris9 is offline Associate Member
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    #1 is what I would recommend to use for your first cycle. What are you going to use for a pct?? Good luck bro!

  21. #21
    JiGGaMaN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsiegal
    Both forms of Test are going to have their drawbacks...BUT....I'm gonna go against the grain and recomend #2...and (unlike many who posted)...i'm going to give you a reason why #2 is better.

    Cypionate is a long acting AAS (as you know) and has an active life of about 14days. It commonly takes several days before any results start to kick in (meaning strength increases,size.etc). Drawbacks include: Gyno, water rentention and long recovery time (return to normalization where you produce your own test). Any side effects (acne,gyno,etc) would be felt for up to 14days AFTER your last injection.....PERIOD.

    Propionate is a short acting AAS. It is more androgenic and anabolic than all other AAS available (2nd to Suspension) and enters the circulatory system at a fairly rapid rate. That means within 1-2 days strength gains will be seen. And because its a short acting ester...you can discontinue it at the first signs of overt side effects. DRAWBACKS: Propionate hurts when you inject it. Most users cut it with grapeseed oil. Because, most beginners are sqeamish about injecting....propionate is difficult to use because it must be injected ed or eod to be effective...and it can only be used for a short period of time (unless you want to risk serious decrease in natural androgen production).

    Final answer: If you can take ed or eod injections of propinate...go with that. Get some grapeseed oil and cut it. This means you will be poking yourself between 15-30 times over a 4wk period (ouch). Many experienced users have a tough time with this. If you can't take the number of injections....use cypionate or enanthate with HCG /clomid.

    best of luck
    i disagree with what you said about prop. strength gains in 1-2 days is not realistic at all. and im not really sure what you are trying to say that it can only be used for a short period.

  22. #22
    johnsiegal is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JiGGaMaN
    i disagree with what you said about prop. strength gains in 1-2 days is not realistic at all. and im not really sure what you are trying to say that it can only be used for a short period.

    Hey Jig,...As an experienced user....you KNOW that shorter acting AAS with short acting esthers get into the blood stream within days. Propinate and Suspension are felt within days (unless of course your buying shit...in which case...no-one knows when you will feel anything). If you aren't feeling propionate or suspension within days of injecting....then change your source Bro! The real Shit will be felt the same day...some report within hours.

    AS far as use periods...I mis-spoke. I should have said..."all testosterone " with prolonged use leads to a serious decrease in natural androgen production.


    peace
    Last edited by johnsiegal; 01-13-2006 at 03:23 PM.

  23. #23
    johnsiegal is offline Junior Member
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    AS far as PCT recovery time....i forgot to add that age is also a factor. It takes longer to recover from a cycle as we age. A user over 35 will experience a longer recope time and production of natural test is slower than that of a 25yr old.


    cya

  24. #24
    IBdmfkr's Avatar
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    I'm about to run Prop for 10wks, Try one cycle and then the other and see which you like better IMO. More than likely you will like the one you do first, because you will receive the best gains from your first cycle with Test.

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