length of cycle debate..........

**iron4life79** · 07-04-2002, 02:04 PM

hey bros,
as some of you may know, dave palumbo does a column in m.d. magazine called the "anabolic freak" here are his recommendations to one fella who asked a simple question on duration specifics:

the question:
how long do you recommend i stay on 1000mg of cypionate and 400mg of deca durabolin per week? i want to make lasting gains.

the answer:
as ive said in the past, i believe length of time on a steroid cycle is a lot more important than the dosage taken. having said that, it makes more sense to take smaller more conservative amounts of anabolics for 16-24 week time periods rather than "shotgun" 5000mg of stuff per week for short 6-8 week cycles. the gains you make on the longer cycles are much more likely to be permanent because you're allowing your body to change its set point. remember, our bodies do not like to lose or gain weight. in order to lose, we must suffer greatly on reduced calorie diets, whereby to gain, we must force feed the body until it finally accepts the added weight as its new set point. likewise, with anabolic agents, our bodies must be exposed to these steroidal compounds for extended periods of time before the muscle gained is accepted as permanent.

my thoughts:
this makes sense to me, however im a little leery of that long of a stay on aas. i can say this though, if thats what it takes to make the gains permanent, im all for it. wonder if dosage and length of clomid therapy would change? and hcg would have to be a definite midway through this baby. im interested in all thoughts pertaining to this question and answer...........

peace bb79

**will** · 07-04-2002, 02:20 PM

this is very interesting.... i mean everything would change if this theory was true.. sounds quite possible and i would do it too if all the gains were permanent....

**shorty2big** · 07-04-2002, 03:58 PM

I have done all kinds of cycles and I must say that staying on a extended cycle with lower amounts has worked best for me. Always using HCG for a week every 5-6 weeks. That's what has worked best for me. I totally agree with Mr. Palumbo

**iron4life79** · 07-06-2002, 07:26 AM

thanks for the responses guys, and this is what im looking for, a little debate, along with some hands on experience in longer cycle times.
i have to admit, i thought this would provoke more of a response from the general body of the board, seeing that the length of most cycles here is in the 8-12 week range. hes advocating 16-24, and smaller doses. i would also like some feedback on how the end of a longer cycle like this would change(ie:clomid therapy-hcg treatment). cmon guys, i want your .02 here...........

peace bb79

**big N** · 07-06-2002, 09:41 AM

a good freind of mine knows palumbo good ,and before that article was up he got tellung me just this ,i through it around in my head for a while,and also researched it aswell.heres what i came up with.this tottaly makes sence ,and yes hcg would almost be a must every so often ,was thinking of doing just that my self this winter but heres my question ,if your body and receptors are use to 600-750 of test off the getgo,if u lower the dose to 400mgs of test for the X amount of time ,would u get gains ,i mean of coures ud get some gains but would it take your body longer to adjust therefore taking gains longer to come?aslo would u have to wait extra long like double the time say u were on 8 weeks take like 16 weeks off so your seceptors are as fresh as possible therefore reacting good to the smaller dose?

**silverfox** · 07-06-2002, 10:30 AM

Same for me, longer the better good base of test and cycle other stuff in and out. HGC every 10 weeks about 10000ius. No problems to date when coming off and maitain gains without problems.

**iron4life79** · 07-06-2002, 11:26 AM

eyecandy,
thanks for your input brother,i know from some of your posts that you advocate longer runs. what do you think of BIG N's question? if you lower the dose from what youre used to, and run the gear for a longer period of time, will gains still be worth the time put in? and with the lowered dosages, im assuming that hcg will still be needed, and clomid therapy will remain the same.

peace bb79

**silverfox** · 07-06-2002, 11:30 AM

Well i personally like to cycle dose up and down, as low at 400mg test per week to much higher, I have never really run at steady level for long peroids, usually 8 weeks high dose, 8 weeks low/med dose and keep repeating that. Same is true for what i stack with test, dose and what i use changes every 8-10 weeks.

**iron4life79** · 07-06-2002, 11:40 AM

ec,
this is interesting bro. he(palumbo) is saying keep the dosages low to moderate, and run longer. youre cycling within a cycle, so to say. up and down on dosages. when youre at a lower level, can you tell a huge difference in the effects? and when you do finally come off, is it a problem to get things going again? i guess this is my major worry, i dont want to stay on so long that complete shutdown occurs to where cant set things back to natural levels again. maybe im worrying for nada here......

peace bb79

**PaPaPumP** · 07-06-2002, 11:56 AM

I've ran one at 7.

and one at 14. They were both awesome, and produced great results.

It really does allow you to adjust to the new weight...I'm all for longer with less.

**XBiker** · 07-06-2002, 12:34 PM

I prefer longer and adding in and removing several substances, while maintaining a good test/eq base.

**4plates** · 07-06-2002, 12:38 PM

i think if i were to run an 16-24 wk cycle i would definitly try to incorperate 2-3 cycles in 1,so the body dosent get accustomed to certain types of gear.might sound stupid but heres what i would do,
wks 1-5 drol or dbol
wks 1-10 prop 100 mg ed
wks 1-10 deca 600 mg wk( HGC)
wks 8-16 enethate 800 mg
wks 8-16 eq 800 mg (hgc)
wks 16-24 prop 150 mg ed
wks 16-24 tren 80-160 mg ed
wks 16-24 winny 50-100 mg ed
(HGC)
clomid 2 days out

**big N** · 07-06-2002, 12:42 PM

x biker sounds right,eye candy flunctuating like that seems weird to me as ur not keeping a nice steady/equal concentration in the blood ,but if it works for ya fuck it,what x biker said sound the best.im still curious with my question though ,and also barbells ,if u hit your hcg every so often ,and at the end and the clomid im sure your be ok,also u could some proviron 50mg a day ,not only as your antie but beeing a descent androgen at basicly no toxicity ,will help keep things running.

**djdjdjddjon** · 07-06-2002, 12:48 PM

4plates, good call...i agree...this is whats coming up for me:

1-5 dbol 35mg ed
1-12 eq 600mg week
1-12 cyp/enant blend @ 600 week
weeks 8-15 winny

15 weeks is longest ive ran, usually 10-12, i might go 12, and run the test @ 300-400 a week and break down the eq the same way @ 300-400, like everyone was saying less gear longer periods

dj

**djdjdjddjon** · 07-06-2002, 12:49 PM

i might go 20 rather, not 12

dj

**silverfox** · 07-06-2002, 12:54 PM

bb79, yes a bit, I find that i still make gains when on lower amounts but not as good, but have yet to have any real lose other than water. Well my last run was about 2 years and 12 weeks-14 weeks after the fact i feel find have had no problems since day 1 from coming off with sex drive etc, in terms of sperm count etc... that is not a worry for me, i have 2 kids already. I have not had blood work done yet, but have in past usually takes me 6 weeks to test normal post cycle.

**silverfox** · 07-06-2002, 12:57 PM

BigN the reason i change to to avoid sides, 8-12 weeks run at i don't consider up and done, at 2000mg week of test plus other goodies by week 8 i need to cut back to keep sides down. Usually that means 1G test plus 1 other anabolic . I have sure that blood levels between 2000 and 1000 are lower, but again I need them to be to avoid the sides.

**DiMensionX** · 07-06-2002, 01:02 PM

Great post:-)

DMX

**iron4life79** · 07-07-2002, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by eye_candy
bb79, yes a bit, I find that i still make gains when on lower amounts but not as good, but have yet to have any real lose other than water. Well my last run was about 2 years and 12 weeks-14 weeks after the fact i feel find have had no problems since day 1 from coming off with sex drive etc, in terms of sperm count etc... that is not a worry for me, i have 2 kids already. I have not had blood work done yet, but have in past usually takes me 6 weeks to test normal post cycle.

ec,
holy shit bro........2 years? i guess the cycle within a cycle is working for you, if you have no sides during the run, and no trouble coming off when its over. im not a competitor(which i believe you are, correct?), so that long of a run is out of the question for me. basically, what you and others have posted here is what i wanted to hear........a big thumbs up for a longer cycle, and no adverse sides from being on longer than is considered "normal".
i only have one more question i guess, and that has to do with the dosage scenario. if im used to 800mg/week for say 10 weeks, and i drop it to 400 for say 20 weeks, which is going to produce more and lasting gains? we all know how d.p. feels about it, i want board opinions here. we can leave safety issues aside, since it seems like weve covered that already.........

peace bb79

**silverfox** · 07-07-2002, 08:02 AM

Well something i think you have to experiment with and see what dose works best for you. For long cycles take your amerdriex (controlling the estrogen is key for me), Run as much as you can for as long as you can and still feel like your making process. Get your blood work checked every few months. The recovery part I feel is genitic thing, i am lucky and recover fast, others take longer. I would start with 16-20 weeks take some time off and see what happens, of course come off correctly w/ clomid.

**rangerdudeleads** · 07-07-2002, 08:59 AM

This post is maybe helping me modify my next cycle, hmmm I might run a longer cycle than I I just did. In fact I was gonna hit a deca / test/dbol cycle but if i choose to run a cycle 24 weeks I will have to change my cycle to what i just did and that is winny/test/eq cycle. Im still making up my mind so i hope more people reply to this.

**iron4life79** · 07-07-2002, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by 4plates
i think if i were to run an 16-24 wk cycle i would definitly try to incorperate 2-3 cycles in 1,so the body dosent get accustomed to certain types of gear.might sound stupid but heres what i would do,
wks 1-5 drol or dbol
wks 1-10 prop 100 mg ed
wks 1-10 deca 600 mg wk( HGC)
wks 8-16 enethate 800 mg
wks 8-16 eq 800 mg (hgc)
wks 16-24 prop 150 mg ed
wks 16-24 tren 80-160 mg ed
wks 16-24 winny 50-100 mg ed
(HGC)
clomid 2 days out

this is a great looking cycle bro, are you considering running it? or is this just a hypothetical scenario if you were to go on a longer one? i'd be interested in results and after cycle effects if you are planning on it..........

peace bb79

**iron4life79** · 07-07-2002, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by eye_candy
Well something i think you have to experiment with and see what dose works best for you. For long cycles take your amerdriex (controlling the estrogen is key for me), Run as much as you can for as long as you can and still feel like your making process. Get your blood work checked every few months. The recovery part I feel is genitic thing, i am lucky and recover fast, others take longer. I would start with 16-20 weeks take some time off and see what happens, of course come off correctly w/ clomid.

ec,
although i am older, it dosent seem to take too awful long for recovery on my "shorter" cycles, so im hoping this will hold true for a longer one as well. i tend to agree with you on the experimental aspect. you have to find what works and what dosent. ive ALWAYS got an anti-e on hand, because you never know, and on an extended cycle i would definitely need to keep the estrogen in check. thanks for all your input brother, youve been a huge help.

peace bb79

**silverfox** · 07-07-2002, 03:38 PM

Well when on, my test levels are off chart even at 1000mg week, at least to the normal person. About 3 years ago when i got serious again about bbing i was 180ish and toped out last Jan at 240, so seems to have worked for me and have been able to maintain 220 natural without too much efford and have been eating maintance calories to stay lean. So long course works for me. My theory is grow for 8 weeks, maintain for 8 weeks to give your body time to adjust to the new weight, i feel the long you stay at a certain weight more likly your body is to return to it. Then try to grow again, i feel you need time to recover from the growth peroid to make gains more solid. Just my personal thoery, no real science behind it.

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 07-07-2002, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by XBiker
I prefer longer and adding in and removing several substances, while maintaining a good test/eq base.

First off Damn great post !!!

I hope this is a long one as I always fucking fight with this in my head.

For me I have to be honest and say i have been very disapointed in my large short burst cycles !!!!!

I am going to end my current cycle for 3 months in which I will take primo at 200mg per week/anavar and Ref-B tabs...

I am on HGH at 4IU per day 7 days on..slin 2 weeks on 2 off using LOG.

I am planning on trying to stay on HGH for the next 6 months min if all goes well ???

Now after this bridge I am going to hit a

500mg week QV Enan. for 6 months ....longest I will have been on.
I hit HCG every 3-4 weeks..just can't deal with atrophy !!!!

Winny 50mg eod<<<< may have to use orals to avoid so many injections over 6 months...

Tren 2 months on and 2 off then back on last 2 months.

And a mixture of other AS that we do not need to cover.

Anyway I think he really is on to something and agree that the body needs to be there for some time to accept the growth and new level of gains....

Big Kev I think also stays on somewhat all year correct Kev ??

TNT this would be a great one for ya also bro ???

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 07-07-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by 4plates
i think if i were to run an 16-24 wk cycle i would definitly try to incorperate 2-3 cycles in 1,so the body dosent get accustomed to certain types of gear.might sound stupid but heres what i would do,
wks 1-5 drol or dbol
wks 1-10 prop 100 mg ed
wks 1-10 deca 600 mg wk( HGC)
wks 8-16 enethate 800 mg
wks 8-16 eq 800 mg (hgc)
wks 16-24 prop 150 mg ed
wks 16-24 tren 80-160 mg ed
wks 16-24 winny 50-100 mg ed
(HGC)
clomid 2 days out

You may want to change some of the order of esters though bro...

I would have to break down the math on half lifes but damn looks like one nice spike around week 16-18 huh ??

Maybe run the enan first and longer and then run the prop second half for easy post cycle planning ??

Just some thoughts on that ??

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 07-07-2002, 04:13 PM

One more thing I am thinking of doing this type but am nervous of the dosages I am seeing posted for that length of time ??

I was thinking lower and longer not heavy and longer ??

EC what are your present stats bro ???

**shorty2big** · 07-07-2002, 10:45 PM

It really does work good. I really agree with it making more of a permenant change in your body by stayin gon for longer with less. This has worked better than anything for myself

**Rickson** · 07-07-2002, 11:28 PM

I think that people will find that as you get older longer cycles become much more productive. However in my case recovery was tougher as well. I am now on permanently by choice and with consent from my endocrinologist and my personally physician(a lot less agreeable). If you are going to stay on for a very long time (more than 6 months) than cycles within cycles are good for gaining and minimizing sides as EyeCandy was talking about. I generally do 12-16 weeks at higher dosages followed by 8 weeks at low dosages.

**silverfox** · 07-08-2002, 04:50 AM

PA, currently 221lbs natural, been so since april 20th show. But on 40lbs right after show, but have been trying to stay somewhat lean for summer.

**PaPaPumP** · 07-08-2002, 06:10 AM

Doesn't it seem easier on the body to add 20lbs of mostly lean mass over a 16+ week period...then blowing up 30lbs of water,muscle, and fat in 6 weeks..only to lose 15?? That shit would fugg with my mind way too much. 4p, looks good bro. I'd love to hear some results off that. and PA, how is that growth, what kind are you running? and why are you going 7 on..instead of the I guess I'll say "normal" 5 on 2 off??

Thanks guys...

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 07-08-2002, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by eye_candy
PA, currently 221lbs natural, been so since april 20th show. But on 40lbs right after show, but have been trying to stay somewhat lean for summer.

Niiiice EC..you are on your way my man...just remember all us little guys that supported you on the board when you hit big time !!!! L.O.L.

40lbs after the show..damn your body must have been fucking shreded from hell huh ???

Good job...

Papa I agree it does seem that the body would respond better and maintain the level you set for it over a long period of time.

Is there really any info showing that long-term use will not provide greater gains then say short large cycles?

It is IMHO that bros. say they no longer make gains after week 12 or so are counting water and the full muscles as gains...but they may not in fact be gains...to me gains are the actually muscle I have put on during a cycle and keep. So I really never know how a cycle is working until I am off and can look back to see actual gains in muscle mass.

Make since.....

EC I think has it on the head with cycles with in cycles...Not allowing the body to fully come off but yet by changing the compounds he is reducing the stress on the body and recovery "should" be easier than say staying on set compounds all year?

Anybody have any medical views on this?

TNT where you at?

Big Kev you stay on all year as well don't you ???

Damn MODS !!! Where are they when you need them !!!

**bigkev** · 07-08-2002, 12:09 PM

its best, and safest for your health, to cycle 10 on 10 off. with that said.....

i stayed on most of the year the last 2 years. i cycle my dosages up and down, change gear. i stay on test all the time though. i will work my way down from a gram a week or so, over 12-14 weeks until i hit 400-200mgs per week for 2 weeks.(thislow dosage is accompanied by eq or deca and a 17aa) and then i spike it back up to a gram, just that quick, and i am growing again. i cycle dbol "or rarely, a50" 4-5 weeks on, and when i get off of it, i get on insulin , creatine, and glutamine. 5 weeks on slin, back on dbol, 8 weeks off slin, on a50 for 5 weeks, on slin, etc... i also cycle my eating between high carbs and high protein all the way to fat for days. if you keep your body guessing, you will continue to grow. you reach a point where you gain actual weight slower, but your body will constantly reshape itself. thats how the pros get that "look". not saying all of that is scientifically correct, but i am near 270lbs right now and have never used growth.

**djdjdjddjon** · 07-08-2002, 12:18 PM

staying on longer at a heavier weight makes perfect sense, anyone who is familiar with homeostasis and the bodys set point knows that the body doesn't like to make changes, so if your gunna change it, i.e changing hormone levels and weight, keep it there for a while, and change the set point, your body is more likely to accept the change and keep it, just .02$

dj

**big N** · 07-08-2002, 12:34 PM

hey big kev u hit hcg at all while on ,every whn and how much?also for u ,and eye candy.while beeing on all this time wont the receptors get saturated and then u stop growing?or by fluctuating in the amounts,and switching gear throughout kinda keeps them going or shocking them in some sort of different way?also kev u had any problems when comming off ?i know eye c didnt.im interested fot the winter,but there are so many mixed reviews on this.the main thing that concerns me is the whole receptor thing can anyone explain or breakit down in some way?

**PURE ADRENALINE** · 07-08-2002, 01:52 PM

not saying all of that is scientifically correct, but i am near 270lbs right now and have never used growth. [/B][/QUOTE]

That is the damn best thing I have read right there !!!!!!!!!

My feelings are sometimes we are trying to hard to be chemist and we need to look at what has worked for others !!!!!!

Maybe "BY THE BOOKS" a certain way "SHOULD" work but that may not always be the case !!!!

KEV and EC may be an example of that.

While some will say that being on for that length of time gives no continuing gains I say..Okay that is why KEV has gone from what 195 to 265 in the last 2 years !!!!

Now not to take away from Kevs hard training and dedication with diet but sometimes we need to listen to what has worked, not what should work !!!!!

One thing though KEV you have never taken HGH !!!

Nice...then you still have more to grow !!!!!

I think HGH is also a key to long cycles for continuing growth but still have some home experimenting to do!!!! L.O.L.

I think both KEV and EC are basically staying on for "most" of the year but changing things up so to confuse the body somewhat.

Great post guys and I hope to see someone post that has used the short burst cycles and has gotten results from that as well ???

Peace..

**iron4life79** · 07-08-2002, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by PaPaPumP
Doesn't it seem easier on the body to add 20lbs of mostly lean mass over a 16+ week period...then blowing up 30lbs of water,muscle, and fat in 6 weeks..only to lose 15?? That shit would fugg with my mind way too much.
Thanks guys...

this is the main reason i started this thread. i read what palumbo was advocating, and, like p.a., have been struggling with having the balls to stay on longer. my problem(balls aside) is going to be with dosages. im used to 10-12 week cycles at a moderate to fairly high dose. its gonna be a bitch to shoot for 20 or so weeks @400mg a week.......ughhhh.

i think im leaning more towards what some of the other bros have posted, hit it a little heavier for 12-16 weeks and bring it down for 4-6, all the while staying on the ari, or liquidex.

thanks again brothers, i put out the call and you responded.

peace bb79

**iron4life79** · 07-10-2002, 06:19 PM

diesel,
youre going to run it down and then back up again? when you run it back up, how long in that phase bro?
the way i was thinking was already going to be 20 weeks on the low end and 22 on the high end. your thoughts?

peace bb79

**iron4life79** · 07-11-2002, 04:28 PM

well,
i think it makes sense to a point, and i would like to have someone experienced chime in on what you posted above, as this is all new to me as well.
i might be off MY rocker, but lets kick this around some..........

my main sticking point with the theory posted above would be the lowest low end dosage. whats the point behind going as low as 100mg ?
hpta is already supressed, and regardless of hcg , its gonnna stay supressed, correct? i would think it would be better to start higher, and taper down........and off. the only way i would consider staying on at that low of a dosage would be to do what you posted in the last part of your reply, switch to a faster acting ester, and ramp it back up after the lowest dosge is reached on the T2. then taper it down again SLOWLY. so we are in agreement on at least one thing-- now its up, down, back up, and then down again, correct?
the more i think about this, the more i like it, but like i said we need an experienced opinion here.

hey d, i think you might be on to something that will work here bro.........and no i dont think youre off your rocker at all. nice call my man.

peace bb79

**iron4life79** · 07-21-2002, 06:37 AM

damn bro,
where the hell you been? i been waiting 2 weeks on this reply.........hehe.
interesting thoughts on the hcg . ive never seen it run that way, but my cycles have never been long enough to need it at this point, so im just using examples of how ive seen it run. i like the ideas youre putting forward here bro, but we need someone whos been on for a while to verify this.
or i guess we could just go for it and see for ourselves.........

peace bb79