Nolva postcycle instead of Clomid

[Cycleon]

By William Llwellyn

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone -stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid
The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".
Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion
To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.
Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

[Tapout]

wow thanks for the article i also like using both

[Tank21]

Bump
Good info. SUre to cause great debate but it is hard to argue with medical fact.

Cycleon, Tapout. Have you used Nolvadex post cycle and what have your experiences been with it in respect to clomid? Similar retention of gains and rebound of natural test? Any comments from anyone would be beneficial. I ask because Nolvadex is easier for me to come by than Clomi and was thinking of using Nolva post cycle instead if feasable.

[Shredder]

He also advises in using HCG . You need test to have estrogen. So just using anti E will result in NO E and no T. So stimulating your gonads to make some test will increase Esrogen then blocking it w/ Anti - E would be more effective in starting the loop again.

[dudsy]

good post, last time i come off the gear i only had nolva to use and it worked just fine for keeping most of my gains. Just a short question. What is the ideal length of time to take nolva after a cycle at 20mg /day?

[Sicilian30]

Awesome post cycle, but do you are could you illaberate on why Nolv will and can hinder gains while on AS? If what you are saying is true, then how and why does Nolv hinder gains while doing a cycle?
I do prefer Nolv over Liquidex and Armidex, with some forms of test, because some test products need to convert to estrogen to make them more effective, Nolv allows the AS to do so where as Armidex and Liquidex does not. But my biggest debate here is if it hinders gains while on a cycle, why? and logically speaking, wouldn't it hinder gains post cycle? I would be curious to do research on how Nolv hinders gains during a cycle, to conclude that it will or will not do the same post cycle. I understand what this article says, about post cycle, but what about during a cycle?

[Jamisun]

would it be smart to run some amount of novladex throughout a cycle containing test to prevent gyno? If so, would you also run it post cycle to stimulate nat test production? If not smart to run the entire cycle, I would also like to know what a post cycle novla therapy would look like i.e. amounts, length.

[AZlifter]

Questions definately arise with this article ??????????

Great POST Cycleon I too would be interested in anyone's experience in using Nolvadex post cycle and how did you dose it?

[AZlifter]

bump....this is a GREAT read, so its going to the top

[iron4life79]

cyc,
my question would be on the dosing after the cycle is over. we know pretty much when to start clomid therapy based on what aas we're running and the down times involved. how can we time the nolva so we keep the gains we made while on? is it similar to clomid therapy? ie: day 1, a heavy dose to kick things off, and then a maintenence dose for the duration of the time?
then are also length of time questions.......
i like nolva as an anti-e if needed, but there are too many unanswered variables for me to start using it as a natural test stimulator when i can just use something proven already.

just my .02

peace bb79

[Sicilian30]

Originally posted by barbells79
cyc,
my question would be on the dosing after the cycle is over. we know pretty much when to start clomid therapy based on what aas we're running and the down times involved. how can we time the nolva so we keep the gains we made while on? is it similar to clomid therapy? ie: day 1, a heavy dose to kick things off, and then a maintenence dose for the duration of the time?
then are also length of time questions.......
i like nolva as an anti-e if needed, but there are too many unanswered variables for me to start using it as a natural test stimulator when i can just use something proven already.

just my .02

peace bb79

I agree Barbells.. I think more research is needed to answer some of the other questions about Nolv post cycle. I would be worried that Nolv would have the same effect of hindering gains post cycle as it does while on your cycle? That would be my main concern.

[Terinox]

bump

How would you take the Nolva? And we need more ppl who have already done this to give us their experiences and what they think about it, how it affected them, etc...

[iron4life79]

Originally posted by Sicilian30

I agree Barbells.. I think more research is needed to answer some of the other questions about Nolv post cycle. I would be worried that Nolv would have the same effect of hindering gains post cycle as it does while on your cycle? That would be my main concern.

sicilian30,
i agree with you as well, that hindering gains thing will be a big issue for a lot of brothers that are seriously bulking.


terinox,
i would like to see some brothers who have done this post up too, it should be interesting............

peace bb79

[Tapout]

bump for answers

[Tank21]

Straight to the top

[Sicilian30]

I hate to say it, but I think I agree with Dr. Evil. Nolv simply binds to the estrogen receptors and prevents them from sucking in estrogen. It does not stop the free flow of estrogen, like Clomid is supposidly noted for. That was another concern of mine, I just didn't have the background knowledge to back up what I was debating. However, if we take what we know about Nolv and apply it to this discussion, then one can clearly see that Nolv only blocks estrogen Recptors, not free flowing estrogen post cycle.

[AZlifter]

I've been having this discussion on AM, AB, and 1moreRep. Some guys are for it some are against it???

Here is how most people who say they used post-cycle nov.: Day 1 40mg, days 2-11 20mg, days 12-21 10mg. But again most of these guys are ALSO using clomid.

So, i guess take it for what its worth

[kizer_soce]

I posted something similar to this a while back.....here is the link.

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...&highlight=HCG

[Sicilian30]

Originally posted by johan
clomid doesn not eliminate free flowing estrogen either. It just binds to the receptor sites just like nolva.

Umm well Johan, no flame bud, but here is a link that says yes, it "suppresses free flowing estrogen", here is the excert and the entire link if you want to read my friend.
Clomiphene citrate appears to act on the hypothalamus and is useful for women who do not ovulate because of hypothalamic or pituitary problems. Given early in the menstrual cycle (day three to seven), it suppresses the amount of naturally circulating estrogen. This "tricks" the pituitary into producing more follicular stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing hormone (LH). These hormones then stimulate the ovary to ripen a follicle and release an egg. Of patients who are properly screened for use of this drug, about 70 percent will ovulate, and 40 percent of those will become pregnant. If a patient ovulates but does not become pregnant, the physician should check cervical factors. The anti-estrogenic effect of clomiphene citrate can create a "hostile" environment for conception.
http://www.rscbayarea.com/articles/clomiphe.html
Okay this is naturally speaking about women and all, but the gist is the same.
And yet another explanation on how Clomid works:
http://www.fertilitext.org/p2_doctor/clomid.html
Again no flame my friend. it suppresses the amount of naturally circulating estrogen.

[Sicilian30]

Yes Johan it did not say how much it supressed free flowing estrogen, but the idea is there. Armidex, yes, in fact, I think Barbells, Cycle, or someone was talking about running armidex/liquidex, all the way thru clomid cycle. I think that is a great idea, could get expensive, but IMO to get maximum benefits from estrogen build up post cycle, I think Clomid PLUS anti esters are a great idea post cycle.
Yes including Nolv but added with Clomid. But hey, I like other's have opinions and different views, we do our own research and we come to our own conclusions, and until someone can show me that Nolv can block estrogen production or slow it down, then I think I am going to stick with Clomid post cycle. Again no hard feelings or flame Johan my friend. Good to have other folks views and feedback, that is what were are here for.

[iron4life79]

well,
im sure some other bros have mentioned it too, but i am running, and will always run the liquidex straight through clomid therapy. it keeps the estrogen supressed until you start(and through) your clomid therapy, and the clomid itself can take over in supressing the estrogen until your natural test kicks back in.
johan, youre a good sport bro, cause sicilian30 is right. estro is suppressed by the clomid. you took it well, and thats a sign of a mature brother.............

peace bb79

[Sicilian30]

Originally posted by barbells79
well,
im sure some other bros have mentioned it too, but i am running, and will always run the liquidex straight through clomid therapy. it keeps the estrogen supressed until you start(and through) your clomid therapy, and the clomid itself can take over in supressing the estrogen until your natural test kicks back in.
johan, youre a good sport bro, cause sicilian30 is right. estro is suppressed by the clomid. you took it well, and thats a sign of a mature brother.............

peace bb79

Yeah but Barbells I am correct only one time in my life.. LOL. Johan is a great sport, and I wasn't trying to flame him at all, he has a great attitude, and even I don't know half as much as most of these guys here like yourself , but I constantly learn with folks like you barbells, and all the other mods, vets and other fellas on the board. Interesting article and thread however.

[TheMudMan]

Thanks..... good read.

I'm going to run nolva and clomid for PCT.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Well Ive done it all ways with PCR. Nolva, Clomid, and both.

Both is obviously the best.

With nolva, you dont get the wierd feelings that clomdi gives, and I didnt break out. BUT, it took a good 6wks to recovery. I chose 60mg ED for the first 4wks and 40mg ED for the next 2wks.

You would start the nolva bout the same as clomid. You can start earlier, as you can with clomid, but its not going to do much for your htpa until exengonous levels have diminished.

I thought Nolva sucked for PCR alone. But I run both anyways.

Nolva wont hinder gains. Old Bill says that all the time. I wonder if hes tried it. I know I have, and know nothing was reduced...well, except my bad cholesterol and blood pressure.