Thread: Post Cycle - Clomid or Nolv
08-13-2002, 11:47 AM #1
Post Cycle - Clomid or Nolv
Hey, which would be better to start my natural test production after being on 1cc of cyp for 8 weeks? I've been off the cyp for about 4 weeks now.
08-13-2002, 11:49 AM #2
Why didnt you find out before you started?
08-13-2002, 11:54 AM #3Respected Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- Miller's Crossing
08-13-2002, 01:30 PM #4
Read more & more about Nolvadex is a better choice over Clomid.
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to. This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compound can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For clomid and Nolvadex, Doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid.
1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (197 320-27
2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9
Not gonna comment on nolva's superiority, however, I want to point out the benefits of estrogen during the cycle, as mentioned in the article. Too many people take anti-es unnecessarily, especially those on the first cycles. Why take anti-es if you dont know how you body is gonna respond to estrogen? Some will get gyno, but the majority won't. If you fall in the majority group why inhibit the gains? Of course if symptoms become prominent then one should begin taking anti-es. Water retention also depends on the individual as do all the sides of test/ Some get them, some dont. Why not see how your body responds to estrogen and then act accordingly. Anti-es not only inhibit gains, but also constitute a high cost proportion of your cycle and are not without sides.
Kind regards Smalluser.
08-13-2002, 02:17 PM #5
Everyone, thanks for the reply, some history... I was put on test therapy by my doctor for low test (210), not for lifting, i basicaly just did what he said and took the shots and my body started to change and i started to research it. He tested my levels 4 weeks ago and they were EXTREMELY high he said (1300) and took me off the shots, i explained to him that i had been doing a lot of reading about this stuff and was very concerend about comming off without anything and he said that i didnt have anything to worry about....but i read otherwise here. This week i have begun to get acne on my upper arms and i have lost a lot of weight and am turning to you all for some guidance. That said:
smalluser, yeah i read that article by bigcat, i ordered some nov.
Pheedo, yea, well i dont plan on doing any more test therapy unless there is something wrong with me.
palme, i guess i just trusted the doc, he would not prescribe anything and said that it would be dangerous to use nov or clomid which scared me, said that there would be too many hormones running thru me. and i just got a call from my doc and he said my test levels are now 173! so what do i do?
08-13-2002, 04:46 PM #6Member
- Join Date
- Dec 2001
Could try some tribulus in the meantime? I heard mixed things about it but while waiting for the nolv it couldn't hurt. Either that or if you have some leftover test maybe take a shot of it to boost levels until you have the nolv ready.
08-13-2002, 05:09 PM #7
Well my doc said that he would put me on 1cc every two weeks, so i was going ask to do half a cc every week, i just want my levels to be between 500-600. What do you think about doing half a cc a week for like 10 weeks then starting nov and see if my test kicks in? I really want to keep the bloat and hairloss down.
Now which is better between Clo and nov for jumstarting test, or what is the best and safest combo for starting natural test?
THANKS TONS GUYS!!!!
btw, here is a link to some pics:
08-13-2002, 08:18 PM #8
08-13-2002, 09:14 PM #9Junior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
did your nuts get smaller? do u feel like shit in the gym? if so get some clomid and write your woman a nice love letter
08-13-2002, 09:53 PM #10
Yes my nuts got smaller and yes i fell shity in the gym. So are you saying that clomid is better then nolva? And should i do a cycle with half a cc a week then start on the post cycle stuff?
08-13-2002, 10:19 PM #11Junior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
i dunno about the nolva thing bro,,but clomid is the more popular route
2 weeks after your last cyp shot
300mg day 1,,,100mg ed for one week,,,then 50mg ed for another week
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