Milk Thistle expert required...

[GrandmasterSpank]

Hi, I'm currently running 25mg Dianabol e/d as a kick-starter to my test cycle, and am also taking 1x 380mg tab of Milk Thistle (80% Silymarin) e/d alongside as liver support.

My question is basically,- would taking x2 tabs of Milk Thistle a day be of extra support/benefit to my liver, or would this be an overdose of Milk Thistle?

The thing is there's plenty of sources saying 'take one tab daily' etc, but nothing saying it's dangerous to exceed the stated dose.

Cheers!

[LATS60]

The best thing to do would be not to take any and save yourself some money.

[GrandmasterSpank]

Okay, so what are you saying,- that there's no need or that it's no good!?

I've heard mixed opinions on Milk Thistle. Anyhoowser, I've got'em now, so I may as well take them...any other takers on the initial Q?

[LATS60]

There's no need mate and thats a fact.

[T_Own]

thats not even close to an overdose, most things suggest 1200mg daily. but you really don't need it, especially with a low dose like that

[GrandmasterSpank]

Oh, alright then, thanks guys! Appreciate it! - Loads of places suggest taking Milk Thistle with Orals, but none of them say when it becomes really neccesary or how much to take.

....Think I'll feed them to my goldfish then,- they're on 50mg Dbol e/d atm so could probably do with it more than me...

[LATS60]

Oh, alright then, thanks guys! Appreciate it! - Loads of places suggest taking Milk Thistle with Orals, but none of them say when it becomes really neccesary or how much to take.

....Think I'll feed them to my goldfish then,- they're on 50mg Dbol e/d atm so could probably do with it more than me...

I know what your doing, your going to sell them on as giant koi.

[GrandmasterSpank]

I know what your doing, your going to sell them on as giant koi.

Damn straight!!...How else am I supposed to pay my gym fees!?!?

[MuscleSportMag]

Most places will tell you to use something for the liver as a PCT, especially with orals. Milk Thistle won't hurt you, and using the suggested dosage on the bottle should be enough.

Although some will tell you that it won't make a difference, a bottle at the vitamin store is cheap and may benefit you.

[Lozgod]

Milk thistle is a good year round supplement. It helps accelerate the regeneration of liver cells slightly. A wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better liver protector is N-acetylcysteine. It is so powerful it is used for lethal tylenol overdoses and it is available OTC.

[Mulciber]

NAC is the shit..

[magic32]

Firstly, MT, renowned though it is for liver cleansing hasn't generated any concrete clinical data (not a single study) to support this historical foundation. Thus, at best it should only be considered a mild cleanser, or as a subordinate ingredient within a formula, especially when applied to compounds as toxically pronounced as oral aas. There is however, plenty of clinical support for the effectiveness of Liv 52, you might look into it.

[THEMEATEATER]

Firstly, MT, renowned though it is for liver cleansing hasn't generated any concrete clinical data (not a single study) to support this historical foundation. Thus, at best it should only be considered a mild cleanser, or as a subordinate ingredient within a formula, especially when applied to compounds as toxically pronounced as oral aas. There is however, plenty of clinical support for the effectiveness of Liv 52, you might look into it.

Liv 52 is the b@ll@cks!! I always use it. Apparently it is given to alcoholics to cleanse the liver. I would also like to try NAC though :-)

[LATS60]

Firstly, MT, renowned though it is for liver cleansing hasn't generated any concrete clinical data (not a single study) to support this historical foundation. Thus, at best it should only be considered a mild cleanser, or as a subordinate ingredient within a formula, especially when applied to compounds as toxically pronounced as oral aas. There is however, plenty of clinical support for the effectiveness of Liv 52, you might look into it.

No bones mate, i respect your opinion. Though i wouldn't say that 17aa's are that toxic.
No one on here knows this, but now everyone will.
I spent 5 wks on a specialist liver ward at the NHS university hospital, with my wife, after which time they let her home, there was nothing else they could do for her.
Believe me, i did pick the brains of every doc,registrar and consultant on liver disease. When i mentioned so called liver cleansers/protectants, (yes all of them) i got a knowing smile.
It's pretty obvious i take steroids , so i broached the subject of 17aa orals and liver aids,( hell i was nearly as bored as the wife so why not) the answer i got,,,,,,, don't waste your money.
Take from this what you will.

[magic32]

No bones mate, i respect your opinion. Though i wouldn't say that 17aa's are that toxic.
No one on here knows this, but now everyone will.
I spent 5 wks on a specialist liver ward at the NHS university hospital, with my wife, after which time they let her home, there was nothing else they could do for her.
Believe me, i did pick the brains of every doc,registrar and consultant on liver disease. When i mentioned so called liver cleansers/protectants, (yes all of them) i got a knowing smile.
It's pretty obvious i take steroids , so i broached the subject of 17aa orals and liver aids,( hell i was nearly as bored as the wife so why not) the answer i got,,,,,,, don't waste your money.
Take from this what you will.

No offense taken Lat, you know we don't bother with such trifles here!

And I'm in no way saying that taking orals w/ or w/o liver protectors will result in liver disease or even damage, nor am I arguing its' astounding resiliency. However, what I am saying is that as you know the liver has well over 500 functions, thus the intentional, excessive ( in amount) and routine consumption of something that incites out of bound liver values would certainly fall into the category of toxic. Just how toxic it becomes is of course based on numerous variables (compound, dosage, frequency, duration, additional impacting habits, etc.). So if your panel of experts say such levels are still immaterial then fine, but regardless of what anyone says the lab facts on taking aas/orals exist and if their negative impact (even if largely inconsequential) can be lessened or eliminated by taking a cleanser I'm going do so. Which segues nicely into the next pertinent question, "Do liver protectors/cleansers actually work, i.e. protect and clean?" And as you probably know there is a substantial amount of data to corroborate this fact as well.

Based on its bodily importance, many scientists believe the liver is affected by every disease and dysfunction going on inside the body. Here is just the start of a very long list of the liver's duties, some of which can be short-circuited by excessive values:

• Metabolizes proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, thus providing energy and nutrients
• Stores vitamins, minerals, and sugars
• Filters the blood and helps remove harmful chemicals and bacteria
• Creates bile which breaks down fats
• Helps to assimilate and store fat soluble vitamins (A, E, D, K)
• Stores extra blood which can be quickly released when needed
• Creates serum proteins which maintain fluid balance and act as carriers
• Helps maintain electrolyte and water balance
• Creates immune substances such as gamma globulin
• Breaks down and eliminates excess hormones
• Vascular (blood management)
• Provides blood clotting factors
• Breaks down ammonia (and other toxins) created in the colon by bacteria; thus preventing death
• Helps to maintain blood pressure
• Constructs cholesterol and estrogen, reconstructs hormones
• Humanizes nutrients, metabolizes protein, carbohydrates, fat for energy
• Synthesizes urea, constructs blood protein, interconverts amino acids
• Constructs 50,000 systems of enzymes to govern metabolic activity throughout the body
• Removes damaged red blood cells
• Converts the thyroid hormone thyroxine (T4) into it more active form triiodothyronine (T3). Inadequate conversion may lead to hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue, weight gain, poor memory and other debilitating conditions.
• Creates GTF (Glucose Tolerance Factor) from chromium, niacin and possibly glutathione. GTF is needed for the hormone insulin to properly regulate blood-sugar levels. Manufactures bile salts which emulsify fats and the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K for proper absorption. The liver also removes some fat-soluble toxins from the body.
• Activates B vitamins into their biologically active coenzyme forms. Virtually every nutrient must be biotransformed by the liver into its proper biochemical form before the nutrient can be stored, transported or used in cellular metabolism.
• Stores various nutrients, especially A, D, B-12 and iron for release as needed.
• Manufactures carnitine from lysine and other nutrients. Carnitine is the only known bionutrient which can escort fats into the mitochondria where they are used to generate ATP energy. The mitochondria generate 90% of the ATP energy at the cellular level.
• Converts lactic acid from a toxic waste to an important storage fuel. Lactic acid is produced when glucose is metabolized through the energy production cycle. When excessive levels accumulate, you experience sore muscles. A healthy liver will extract lactic acid from the bloodstream and convert it into the reserve endurance fuel, glycogen.
• Serves as the main glucose buffer, preventing high or low extremes of blood sugar. The liver is the key regulator of blood sugar between meals due to its manufacture, storage, and release of glycogen, the starch form of glucose. When blood sugar is low, a healthy liver converts stored glycogen into glucose, releasing it into the bloodstream to raise blood sugar levels. When blood sugar is high, a healthy liver will convert the excess into stored glycogen or fat.
• Chief regulator of protein metabolism. The liver converts different amino acids into each other as needed.
• Produces cholesterol and converts it into the various forms needed for blood transport.
• Converts essential fatty acids such as GLA, EPA, and DHA into the lipoprotein forms necessary to allow transport via the bloodstream to the 50 trillion cells requiring fatty acids.
• Main poison-detoxifying organ in the body. The liver must break down every substance toxic to the body including metabolic wastes, insecticide and pesticide residues, drugs, alcohol, etc. Failure of this function will usually cause death in 12 to 24 hours.
• Removes ammonia, a toxic by-product of animal protein metabolism, from the body.
• Breaks down hormones after they have served their function. i.e., if the liver does not break down insulin fast enough, hypoglycemia results because the circulating insulin continues to lower blood sugar.
• The liver is vital to a host of other metabolic functions, but this brief overview should serve to illustrate the central role the liver plays in maintaining good health and the importance of implementing life-style change if necessary.

[LATS60]

Excellent post magic.

[football3355]

No offense taken Lat, you know we don't bother with such trifles here!

And I'm in no way saying that taking orals w/ or w/o liver protectors will result in liver disease or even damage, nor am I arguing its' astounding resiliency. However, what I am saying is that as you know the liver has well over 500 functions, thus the intentional, excessive ( in amount) and routine consumption of something that incites out of bound liver values would certainly fall into the category of toxic. Just how toxic it becomes is of course based on numerous variables (compound, dosage, frequency, duration, additional impacting habits, etc.). So if your panel of experts say such levels are still immaterial then fine, but regardless of what anyone says the lab facts on taking aas/orals exist and if their negative impact (even if largely inconsequential) can be lessened or eliminated by taking a cleanser I'm going do so. Which segues nicely into the next pertinent question, "Do liver protectors/cleansers actually work, i.e. protect and clean?" And as you probably know there is a substantial amount of data to corroborate this fact as well.

Based on its bodily importance, many scientists believe the liver is affected by every disease and dysfunction going on inside the body. Here is just the start of a very long list of the liver's duties, some of which can be short-circuited by excessive values:

• Metabolizes proteins, fats, and carbohydrates, thus providing energy and nutrients
• Stores vitamins, minerals, and sugars
• Filters the blood and helps remove harmful chemicals and bacteria
• Creates bile which breaks down fats
• Helps to assimilate and store fat soluble vitamins (A, E, D, K)
• Stores extra blood which can be quickly released when needed
• Creates serum proteins which maintain fluid balance and act as carriers
• Helps maintain electrolyte and water balance
• Creates immune substances such as gamma globulin
• Breaks down and eliminates excess hormones
• Vascular (blood management)
• Provides blood clotting factors
• Breaks down ammonia (and other toxins) created in the colon by bacteria; thus preventing death
• Helps to maintain blood pressure
• Constructs cholesterol and estrogen, reconstructs hormones
• Humanizes nutrients, metabolizes protein, carbohydrates, fat for energy
• Synthesizes urea, constructs blood protein, interconverts amino acids
• Constructs 50,000 systems of enzymes to govern metabolic activity throughout the body
• Removes damaged red blood cells
• Converts the thyroid hormone thyroxine (T4) into it more active form triiodothyronine (T3). Inadequate conversion may lead to hypothyroidism, chronic fatigue, weight gain, poor memory and other debilitating conditions.
• Creates GTF (Glucose Tolerance Factor) from chromium, niacin and possibly glutathione. GTF is needed for the hormone insulin to properly regulate blood-sugar levels. Manufactures bile salts which emulsify fats and the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K for proper absorption. The liver also removes some fat-soluble toxins from the body.
• Activates B vitamins into their biologically active coenzyme forms. Virtually every nutrient must be biotransformed by the liver into its proper biochemical form before the nutrient can be stored, transported or used in cellular metabolism.
• Stores various nutrients, especially A, D, B-12 and iron for release as needed.
• Manufactures carnitine from lysine and other nutrients. Carnitine is the only known bionutrient which can escort fats into the mitochondria where they are used to generate ATP energy. The mitochondria generate 90% of the ATP energy at the cellular level.
• Converts lactic acid from a toxic waste to an important storage fuel. Lactic acid is produced when glucose is metabolized through the energy production cycle. When excessive levels accumulate, you experience sore muscles. A healthy liver will extract lactic acid from the bloodstream and convert it into the reserve endurance fuel, glycogen.
• Serves as the main glucose buffer, preventing high or low extremes of blood sugar. The liver is the key regulator of blood sugar between meals due to its manufacture, storage, and release of glycogen, the starch form of glucose. When blood sugar is low, a healthy liver converts stored glycogen into glucose, releasing it into the bloodstream to raise blood sugar levels. When blood sugar is high, a healthy liver will convert the excess into stored glycogen or fat.
• Chief regulator of protein metabolism. The liver converts different amino acids into each other as needed.
• Produces cholesterol and converts it into the various forms needed for blood transport.
• Converts essential fatty acids such as GLA, EPA, and DHA into the lipoprotein forms necessary to allow transport via the bloodstream to the 50 trillion cells requiring fatty acids.
• Main poison-detoxifying organ in the body. The liver must break down every substance toxic to the body including metabolic wastes, insecticide and pesticide residues, drugs, alcohol, etc. Failure of this function will usually cause death in 12 to 24 hours.
• Removes ammonia, a toxic by-product of animal protein metabolism, from the body.
• Breaks down hormones after they have served their function. i.e., if the liver does not break down insulin fast enough, hypoglycemia results because the circulating insulin continues to lower blood sugar.
• The liver is vital to a host of other metabolic functions, but this brief overview should serve to illustrate the central role the liver plays in maintaining good health and the importance of implementing life-style change if necessary.

wow that was a sweet post man. To back you up, I take Liv. 52 year round on and off the juice. It makes me feel so much better and healthier when I take it. I seem to distribute nutrients and help prevent protein breakdown better than usual. I hardly ever get sick - may be once every year if that. Not to mention mt doctor says my liver values and enzymes are in great shape and are more "powerful" than normal healthy adults because of Liv. 52. My blood work by my doc. has made me a believer of Liv. 52 even though the effects are well pronounced on it's own. Give it a try, it isn't expensive at all, and it's worth the try. Finish a bottle and go get your values checked my your doc. I'd be surprised if you saw no improvement at all. I'm not a sales junkie or a Liv. 52 bandwagoner lol if that makes since, but I know it helps me and makes me feel a whole lot better even when I don't cycle. It's great for anyone that wants to feel better that is usually under stress from day to day difficulties that may weaken your immune system. I know from my last year in college that work and school is extremely tough and stressful especially when you stay up late for midterms and exams, you tend to weaken your immune system over time and you feel run down. Now about milk thistle, I have tried both and have documented the comparison and have noticed milk thistle is not nearly as accomplished as Liv. 52 on ALL levels. I think milk thistle is "over" hyped for a lot of people especially when you can walk down to your local GNC and buy it for around 10 bucks. You don't have to believe me, but if milk thistle is disappointing you then give Liv. 52 and try and if it does nothing, give me all of the crap you want. Just get tested by your doc. first so there's proof to back you up. Good luck!

[jimmyinkedup]

From what ive read N-acetylcistene (sp) is primarily used to detoxify the body of heavy metals. It is also used in the case of an acetaminophen OD and for general liver repair. It is known to increase the likely hood of kidney stones fairly substantially in some cases. Apparently vitamin c (3x rda)offsets this. Also take note it also has an insulin blocking effect (for any diabetics a def no no) and also no good PWO i would imagine. Ive never used it ..i bought into the milk thistle thing but always wondered if it was worth a damn. Im looking foreward to trying liv52 with NAC. Without blood work its hard to tell if any of the above work but if a doc says simarylin (milk thistle) is worthless id tend to believe him. These things are cheap enuf and seem harmless enuf to just use them in case they do work.