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  1. #1
    OGPackin's Avatar
    OGPackin is offline Anabolic Member
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    Good Read on Clomid vs. Nolvadex

    Hey bros, i found this posted on another forum. ( INTIMID8OR3 )Really good reading.

    OG

    I have received a lot of heat lately about my
    preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for
    all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world
    anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good)
    cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a
    testosterone -stimulating compound. Most people use
    Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so
    that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most
    bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to
    this important issue, so by way of disinterest,
    another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to
    using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone
    release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it.
    They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that
    this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the
    actions of the two drugs. In this article I would
    therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two
    agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex
    for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone
    production.

    Clomid and Nolvadex
    I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so
    separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly
    should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both
    anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of
    triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally
    related and specifically classified as selective
    estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed
    agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that
    in certain tissues they can block the effects of
    estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the
    receptor, while in others they can act as actual
    estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of
    these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to
    oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the
    hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of
    GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by
    the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in
    turn can increase the level of testosterone by the
    testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason
    bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the
    only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you
    will find with a little investigation however is that
    not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it
    should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

    Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH
    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University
    of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using
    Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone
    levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of
    Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of
    normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm
    counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results
    of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously
    the most relevant. What was found, just in the early
    parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex,
    used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased
    serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which
    was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily
    for the same duration (the testosterone increase was
    slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid).
    We must remember though that this is the effect of
    three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a
    50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar,
    we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy
    forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.


    But something more interesting is happening.
    Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation
    tests before and after various points of treatment
    with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had
    markedly different results. These tests involved
    infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring
    the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of
    this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to
    Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the
    pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests
    showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex,
    pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly
    compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10
    days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown
    to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH
    (more LH was released before treatment). As the study
    with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary
    sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than
    pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same
    20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH
    levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values,
    respectively, which again is measurably higher than
    what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of
    treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is
    causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized
    to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only
    to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone.
    That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone
    if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the
    opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an
    advantage in Nolvadex.

    The Estrogen Clomid
    The above discrepancies are likely explained by
    differences in the estrogenic nature of the two
    compounds. The researchers' clearly support this
    theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference
    in response might be attributable to the weak
    intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this
    study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin
    and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG]
    levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen
    treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the
    paper, such as interference by increased androgen or
    estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases
    in these hormones were similar with both drug
    treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic
    estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically
    absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable
    explanation".
    Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they
    appear to act very differently at different sites of
    action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic
    at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in
    contrast to Clomid, which although a strong
    anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit
    weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find
    further support for this we can look at an in-vitro
    animal study published in the American Journal of
    Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at
    the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH
    stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary
    cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating
    cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on
    cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker
    but still significant effect compared to estradiol.
    Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any
    significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it
    mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were
    incubated in the same culture.

    Conclusion
    To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex
    is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs,
    at least where the HPTA
    (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned.
    This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male
    bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is
    especially true at times when we are looking to
    restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to
    desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps
    slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would
    require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the
    presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of
    LH stimulation.
    Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for
    those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at
    raising testosterone levels to warrant using as
    anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a
    better and more stable increase in testosterone
    levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater
    effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The
    potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported
    by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as
    this might work to allow for comparably less free
    active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.
    Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for
    the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous
    testosterone, however the above research provides
    enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time

  2. #2
    palme's Avatar
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    Good read OG.

  3. #3
    JYZZA's Avatar
    JYZZA is offline VET
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    Good post OG it's good to know more specifics about the 2.
    Click Banner To Enter

    ~ Disclaimer: Quality Muscle was designed to share knowledge and discuss diverse areas of bodybuilding. ~ Quality Muscle and its Staff does not promote the use of illegal substances ~

  4. #4
    trimunex's Avatar
    trimunex is offline Senior Member
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    Did that originally come from an MD article?? .. 'cause I feel like I've read that before. Anyway, it's a great read .. thanks for posting it OG. I've also read before that one should run a low dose of Nolva throughout their cycle as opposed to Arimidex /Liquidex, because of the negative effect Arim/Liq can have on one's cholesterol.

    9

  5. #5
    Longhorn's Avatar
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    good read OG.

  6. #6
    BIG TEXAN's Avatar
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    *****bowing down****
    Oh great Dali Llama!!!! Good read!!!!!!!

  7. #7
    OGPackin's Avatar
    OGPackin is offline Anabolic Member
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    Originally posted by BIG TEXAN
    *****bowing down****
    Oh great Dali Llama!!!! Good read!!!!!!!
    hahaha! thxs bros! I thought it was very interesting reading. IMO Nolvadex is the shiat. Good stuff!

    OG

  8. #8
    Tank21's Avatar
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    yeah, nice post man, i always was interested in that debate. I think people use clomid just because we have been told to use it. It does the job no doubt but i am def interested if Nolvadex will do the job for cheaper and more effectively. Nice man

  9. #9
    lwb357's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tank21
    yeah, nice post man, i always was interested in that debate. I think people use clomid just because we have been told to use it. It does the job no doubt but i am def interested if Nolvadex will do the job for cheaper and more effectively. Nice man
    I agree, but I think it's why we're told to use it. If you look at any site that gives descriptions of roids, and what they do, it always says clomid will help you keep your gains after a cycle but nolvadex willnot.
    Maybe there is some misinformation out there.

  10. #10
    showtime is offline Junior Member
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    good post og.........i already have my nolv. for next cycle, hope it is effective

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