Low dose post from Elite (The way pros used to cycle)

[fast]

Good points

[D_BEAR]

big bump
lol
hey could some one post the web address so we could all read this?
first hand please?

[JP1570]

Well, we don't have to worry about getting bad TT gear anymore since TT exists only in a shutdown lab in Mexico and the unused vials we still have sitting around our houses. So far, all my test for the next cycle (5 vials of prop) is qv.

[Ex_banana-eater]

i agree with victorian, the old timers are probably lieing about their doses.

lets use some sense for a minute here. the average adult produces 4-10mg of test per day. with a pro using 10mg of dbol , this would mean that his natural test would drop down very low, as to compensate for the extra hormones coming into his system. this would only put him in the high-normal range. he would only have the test levels of a natural. does it make sense that someone the equivilent of a natural could be like him? no. definitely a lie about doses.

[D_BEAR]

bump back to top

[GrowPhaster]

I beleive that maybe there is some logic to the lower dose idea....I don't want to get shot but here's my experience....

I am really a newbie when it comes to gear. But NOT when it comes to training/dieting, I have been training pretty seriously now for about 10 years(not for size, mainly just for overall fitness). I am 27 years old 5ft 9, 190lbs Male.

Last year I hit my first cycle, basically I had an old steroid book which the doses recommended were pretty low and had not found any of the internet message boards where lots of guys recommend what I thought were very high doses in comparison to what I read in my little book. When I did my first cycle last year I was about 155 lbs solid/lean....my first cycle was 250mg of sust per week for 12 weeks, when I was done I was up 25 lbs and still kept my size 29 waist My stregnth was also way up!also I took 8 weeks off, at the end of 8 weeks (taking zero AS) I was down only 5lbs. My next cycle was 200mg cyp per week for 8 weeks and I am up to 190 now. By the way I did use clomid after the first cycle and just took my last shot of the 200mg cyp and will use clomid again. Did not use Nolv but had/have it around just in case.

I personally think that first off everyone is different and their approach is different. Also, perhaps since I started at a lower dose maybe my body will take a little longer before I need to go higher. Who knows maybe these 2 cycles are the only ones that I will be able to get away with these low doses with. My next cycle will be in about 8 weeks. I am going low dose again maybe I won't gain and I too will have to go higher...or maybe if I'm really lucky I'll be at 200 lbs or so after 8weeks.

This is my personal experience guys, I'm not sure if some of you may take this the wrong way. I REALLY hope not cause I'm gonna be asking all you guys lots of questions! I am just sharing my experience up to now.

[djsir007]

Great Thread. All you beginers look here

[arby]

I did 500mg of test and 400mg of EQ my first cycle. Had some problems, could be my age (47) as well, but have decided to go with a low dose for longer on my next one. I have thought of doing a short cycle with short esters to see if that would help, but I'll wait on that.

I like the way the bodybuilders of the 70's looked over todays.

JohnnyB

But you're on HRT also, don't you ses steady gains from that? How much are you on, 100mg, 200mg?

RB

[ddrew]

I think it is a good idea to preach moderation to new members in regards to the amounts of AAS they use, but in the time I have been training, useing AAS, and competing, I have found that just about everyone lies and downplays the amounts they are taking. I don't personally know any of the 70's greats that are being refered to in this thread but I do know myself and several other guys in my state that compete on the national level. For the longest time these guys would claim to take much less than they actually do(myself included). Over time a few have been open with me about what they take and how much, the same as I have opened up to a few close friends about my useage. What I have found out is most of the guys here on the national level are taking at least 3 grams total a week or more and when they talk openly about it say that it wasn't until they stepped up there levels to these amounts that they really started making big gains again. I know myself I don't want people to judge me and react they way they usealy do when I tell them what I take, so I generaly claim to use less than I really do, as do my friends. Plus I think alot of these guys don't really want to think about just how much they are taking and what the long term effects of use at that level may be. So in closing I do not know the guys being refered to but I do know human nature and many top level compititors and when I read the claims being made about the levels they were taking I have to say BULLSHIT!

[BASK8KACE]

The problem is this:
Often, beginners look at the biggest, most cut guy in the gym and decide since he looks good then everyone should do whatever that large, muscular person is doing. That is the WRONG thing to do. People have to learn that something that works for one doesn't mean it will work well for another (and it doesn't mean there is a problem with the person for whom the "something" didn't work).

Too many people decide that they are going to skip over the hard work, dedicated meal and workout planing, etctera, and go straight to large doses and a huge body. WRONG and DANGEROUS.

Someone needed to start voicing another opinion on the boards besides the constant "more is better" and " more will get you there faster."

I'm sure the pro's use a lot of steroids --a lot more than they report. But that does not mean that they didn't WORK UP to using the large amounts, and it most definitely doesn't mean that lower doses don't work (a myth which still too many people believe--again, not everyone gets good results from a set dose be it high or low).

If you can take a moment, please share what YOUR last two cycles were and what kind of gains you made. Also please tell us what doses you started with when you first stepped into dark side.

[DocHoliday]

GREAT THREAD!

When I first started posting my "first cycle" threads, I got flamed for my choice of low test dosages. From what I read, a first timer should expect more than outstanding gains from lower dosages.

I do believe that slower, steady gains will yeild more quality and long lasting muscle. I'm sure most would agree. We're all just impatient.

No offense to any vets out there, you've all helped me out a lot, but I think some times many are too quick to tell a newbie that they should take 500mg of test ew.

I'm willing to be proof, and I'm going to try and post my results. Longer cycle with lower dosages.

My cycle as advised and formulated based upon the influence of the vets:

wk 1-10 Test Enanthate 500mg ew
wk 1-10 Anavar 35mg ed
wk 1-10 EQ 200mg ew

The cycle I'm reconsidering and more comfortable with trying:

wk 1-14 Primobolan Depot 200mg ew
wk 1-10 Test Enanthate 300mg ew
wk 11-12 Test Enanthate 200mg ew

I'll post this on a new thread.

Back to the main point. I agree that higher test dosages should be left to those who have acheived a high enough body weight, and immunity to the lower more modest roids.

Doc

[Sigmund Froid]

Low dose cycles don't make the most of non-AR mediated effects of AAS. There are certain effects (like receptor upregulation and certain non-AR effects) that are only possible with high doses. This is from mesomorphosis.com:

---------
There are far fewer ARs than most people realize. Some authors who are opposed to AAS doses beyond 200 mg/week say that only this amount will be accepted by the receptors in muscle, and everything past that will "spill over" and go into receptors in the skin and elsewhere.

Research shows that muscle tissue has, roughly, 3 nanomoles of ARs per kg. Then your body probably has less than 300 nanomoles of ARs, grand total, let's say.

Well, one 2.5 mg tab of oxandrolone supplies about 8000 nanomoles of AAS. Clearly, that's far more molecules than your body has receptors.

A little math shows that all those receptors combined could bind only a small percentage of the molecules of AAS in one little 2.5 mg tab. So binding to ARs cannot appreciably reduce the concentration of AAS in the blood. Therefore, the ideas that ARs will bind most of whatever dose some author recommends, or that "spill-over" will occur beyond that, are entirely wrong. There just aren't that many receptors.

Typical doses of AAS are high enough that a high percentage of the ARs are bound to AAS, whether the dose is say 400 mg/week or 1000 mg/week. If similar percentages of ARs are active – close to 100% in each case -- then why do higher doses give more results? It's a fact that they do, but there is not any large percentage of unoccupied receptors at the moderate dose. Thus, there is little room for improvement there. So at least part of the cause must be something other than simply occupying a higher percentage of receptors.
(excerpt from an article by Bill Roberts)

[Nixter]

I think genetics play a big role in the differences in today's BB'ers and those of decades ago. I think that in the past, only those with uber-genetics to begin with made it big and therefore did so with less AAS. Today, I feel that many BB'ers who lack *perfect* genetics make up for it chemicaly. I think that is why you see more freakishly shaped BBer's today. They are huge but don't have a good shape/symetry to start with. The old boys all seem to have that nicely shaped, symetrical and tapered look.

Nixter.

[ENraged]

I think genetics play a big role in the differences in today's BB'ers and those of decades ago. I think that in the past, only those with uber-genetics to begin with made it big and therefore did so with less AAS. Today, I feel that many BB'ers who lack *perfect* genetics make up for it chemicaly. I think that is why you see more freakishly shaped BBer's today. They are huge but don't have a good shape/symetry to start with. The old boys all seem to have that nicely shaped, symetrical and tapered look.

Nixter.

just thought i would drag this post up again. Good reading for us newbies thinking of gunning down a gram of test for the first cycle

[BUYLONGTERM]

I agree. I got great benefits from low doses...

[JohnnyB]

just thought i would drag this post up again. Good reading for us newbies thinking of gunning down a gram of test for the first cycle

Damn that's crazy a gram of test for your first cycle, you may need a bra when it's all said and done.

On a serious note a gram a week for a newbie, would bring more side effect then gains.

JohnnyB

[keithquig]

i agree with not overdoing AS but everyone wants to be bigger than the pros or eqaully as big. and thats where abusing the AS comes into play ive read that some athletes use 1750 mg/day thats to much for 1-2 weeks i think but in a day. kids now days want to look like the incredble hulk now than the terminator. and to get that big u must do outrages amount of AS to even consider being that size. and magizens like muscular development dont help by flashing the steroid card in every article as if doing them is the only way to lift and be big. so if MD says its ok to do 1000mg/week of test and 1000mg/day of dbol u think no one would do it i dam well assure u people would.

[JohnnyB]

Damn 1750mg/day that's almost 10 grams of juice a week, that's plain stupid. I think your right though, people think big doses means big body. But without the food to support those kinds of doses, your not going to gain much more if any at all, you will get more side effects though.

JohnnyB

[BASK8KACE]

Bump.

[MMC78]

Bump for an eye-opening thread.

[SaTyR]

You make some good points, but there's a flipside to that coin. I used 400mg of test and 400mg of eq for twelve wks and had minimal gains. 99% of us don't have the genetics those pros you mentioned have, so we compensate by using more juice.

Bingo

[1-Cent]

I agree as well, as JP1570 said we can't all have pro level genetics, myself, I leveled off at a natty 180lbs lean, I could bulk to 200lbs but none of that was ever muscle, thats just my genetics, my entire family is ecto, I dwarf everyone I'm related to.

That may not be my genetic limit but its close enough that it made lifting seem pointless besides strength gains.
If you took away arnolds or colemans gear theyd still probably be 220-230lbs of solid mass with ease. So sure on 250mg of test they can explode because they don't need it to be big in the first place.

On the other hand I do agree a lot of people take too much gear too soon, just not to the same extent I guess. Many good points tho bro, interesting read for me.

[BASK8KACE]

You make some good points, but there's a flipside to that coin. I used 400mg of test and 400mg of eq for twelve wks and had minimal gains. 99% of us don't have the genetics those pros you mentioned have, so we compensate by using more juice.

Bingo

SaTyR & JP1570,

If you cannot grow while using 400mg of testosterone and 400mg of EQ, then your genetics are unlikley the the cause of your lack of growth. Your lack of growth is most likely a result of a bad diet.

Many AS users don't realize that once you decide to use steroids , your growth is far more dependent on diet than which steroids you stack--especially when you first start using steroids. Using ever higher doses to force growth when you havent perfected your diet is sisyphean*.

*--NOTE: In the realm of the dead of Greek mythology, Sisyphus is forced to roll a block of stone up a steep hill, which tumbles back down when he reaches the top. Then the whole process starts again, lasting all eternity. This endless, futile attempt to roll the heavy boulder to the top of the hill, is his punishment for murder, for betraying the secrets of the gods and for interfering with the god of death.

Perfect your diet before you start using steroids, and you won't be doomed to repeated failure to grow.

[BASK8KACE]

1-Cent,

Although you mentioned 250mg per week of test, I'd like to point out that 200mg per week of a long lasting ester of testosterone such as cypionate or enanthate is equivalent to MORE than twice what your body produces naturally. There's no reason a new steroid user cannot grow on a weekly dose of 250mg testosterone if his diet, rest and training intensity are in order.

[groundandpoundpwr21]

Someone mentioned something about anti e's,clomid, and what not back in sergio, arnolds time ect. I was wondering if they had any and if so what did they have? The cycles listed in this post could probably be gotten away with by most who arent gyno prone but what about arnie's 50mg of dbol , I have never went that high but I would think you would need something at that dosage?

[MMC78]

Someone mentioned something about anti e's,clomid, and what not back in sergio, arnolds time ect. I was wondering if they had any and if so what did they have? The cycles listed in this post could probably be gotten away with by most who arent gyno prone but what about arnie's 50mg of dbol, I have never went that high but I would think you would need something at that dosage?

Apparently Clomid was used. Tamoxifen --who knows?

[Eddie8]

Great Post...The mystery of AAS use continues. What works, how much, how little? Ask someone big and strong and if they don’t lie to you, you should be able to get a good idea. The problem is as someone posted earlier in the thread is that most body builders have a pretty healthy ego, especially competitive ones that are successful. They want you to think that they are genetically superior to you and me because we are mere mortals, especially back then when few knew anything about weight training. All of the old time guys flat out lied and said they never took steroids as was said earlier in the thread and when they finally did confess due to pressure, they down played it. They thought that if the general public knew they were chemically enhanced that they would not respect them. You could fool the general public back then because only a few worked out. People in general thought that if you lifted weights you would look like Arnold. Today my gym has more people working out in it at 5:00 than the total of all of the gyms in my Town did on any given day 30 years ago. 30 years ago the majority of people that worked out were aspiring body builders, only a few people worked out to be fit. We didnt even have a treadmill in my gym. In fact weight lifting was considered bad if you were an athlete because it made you muscle bound. If you watch pumping iron you can get a feel that they were not so much considered athletes back then but more like circus freaks. They were much less accepted by society than today, they were on the fringe. Human nature is that if a little works then let’s try more, especially when you are a competitor. IMO the only thing that keeps most of us in check is either lack of money or fear of sides related to our health. Remember that poll that they gave to Olympic athletes when they asked them if they could take something that would give them the gold medal but would shorten their lives by 5 or 10 years and they all said yes they would take it. Arnold and those guys were pioneers with one goal in mind, beating the other guys in competition. I could be wrong but I think that they took more than they say, its just human nature IMO. I also think that the only time they went off was when they needed to shed water to get ready for a show. I will say this though; I have normal genetics and had great gains with low doses when I was 25. First cycle 20 years ago was:

Week 1-6 200mg Test/Enan per week
Week 7-12 100mg Deca per week
Week 13-18 10mg Var ed

I went from 175 to 204 in 12 weeks. Strength went through the roof body fat went up some too. I would have had to start doing that at 16 and would have had to continue in order to be something impressive by my mid to late 20s. With my subsequent cycles I have taken higher doses and gotten good results but not like the first cycle. I think everyone has to take more and more to get results. IMO low doses work great when you first start but something happens (I guess receptor shutdown) in your body to make it less effective unless you take long, long periods off between cycles, like a year or more. If everyone took that much time off it would take you 15 years to get big. That’s OK for some but not for others. Sure would save a lot of money on gear though.

[BASK8KACE]

Bump.

[Jackman]

good read bump

[Anhydro78]

I personally love the feeling, and appearance of heavy androgen use. The androgenic effect of steroids make me train in a way that changes my athletic abilitys/performance. As for the Anabolic effect of steroids. Each positive side effect of the steroid can only be enhanced so much. For me with higher doses I dont have problems with estrogen. I do have other increased sides like acne and high blood pressure and such. But ussually its certain drugs that can be avoided for me to avoid sides.

I would think that those body builders are lying though. Those are some pretty low doses. Just look at what it takes these body builders today. And we all know what it takes for us to grow now. I dont see any 250lb+ guys advocating 1/2 gram a week cycles. I know alot of big guys and even the ones that do use moderate doses require a gram or so. I think geneitcs play a role in how much your body responds to hormone therapy. Some dont need very much at all and others dont respond very well to even high doses.

Im not in a position to debate you. And i have read everything you wrote on the subject. It would be hard for you to convince me that you dont need higher doses to maintain and promote excessive growth like a 250-300lb person.

I agree that alot of us are depending more on the hormones than our diets and workouts.

[Pork Chop]

You'll get much different opinions from Anabolex.

The supposed cycles the pro's did listed here looks like a good beginner's cycle. There is no way anyone preping for a Mr.Universe/Mr.Olympia did so on a few hundred mg's a week, a few THOUSAND maybe.
I don't where where this information was sourced, but i've yet to come across anything legitimate outlining a pro's cycle.

My Bros's company sends him to competitions to promote products - he meets the big dogs. Whenever he asks what the secret is, they say "to be like a pro, you have to use like a pro". Sounds straight forward to me.
He's met monsters like greg kovac's in the flesh and i've seen the pics with him.. these guys don't get to where they are using knoob doses.
We're talking pharmaceutical stuff you and i have never heard of over and above shotting a 10ML of E daily.

If you've gotten good gains using a couple mg's a week, you could have doubled them by doubling the dose.
The amount of test you use is directly related to how much muscle you carry.
In the end it's how big you wanna get. If you're happy with X using 300mg's a week of Y, then there's no need to up it.

I was told "guys who use a 1g a week are usually big and fat". True, most carry a higher BF % than most - then again trying to maintain "pre-contest" BF % levels while cycling hardly seems like a good way to promote growth.

As for worrying about newbies and what they use, i don't.
I don't believe in bending to truth to protect some guy i've never met on the net. The facts is the best way to protect yourself and use common sense.

[skiing]

thank you for the information. I was thinking upon the lines of smaller or almost a homeopathic approach. Makes sense to me. Againg thanks and keep it coming.

Ski a great winter

[Property of Steroid.com]

Pork is correct.

[symatech]

nice. realgains has some of the best posts over at elite. I think he has his own board as well, but I forget the addy. Have you read his 2 week cycle thread?

[Property of Steroid.com]

I've read it. It's a horrible idea...I think he eventually revised that into a 6-week cycle idea...which is slightly less horrible....

[t-money]

Bump for all to read.

T

[Pork Chop]

SaTyR & JP1570,

If you cannot grow while using 400mg of testosterone and 400mg of EQ, then your genetics are unlikley the the cause of your lack of growth. Your lack of growth is most likely a result of a bad diet.

Many AS users don't realize that once you decide to use steroids , your growth is far more dependent on diet than which steroids you stack--especially when you first start using steroids. Using ever higher doses to force growth when you havent perfected your diet is sisyphean*.

*--NOTE: In the realm of the dead of Greek mythology, Sisyphus is forced to roll a block of stone up a steep hill, which tumbles back down when he reaches the top. Then the whole process starts again, lasting all eternity. This endless, futile attempt to roll the heavy boulder to the top of the hill, is his punishment for murder, for betraying the secrets of the gods and for interfering with the god of death.

Perfect your diet before you start using steroids, and you won't be doomed to repeated failure to grow.

how far you want to go beyond your genetic limits depends on how much juice you use.

I say this assuming nutrition and other variables are in check.

[*Narkissos*]

Pork is correct.

For the first time i agree

[workdude]

Bump this should be required reading...

[Anhydro78]

I want Bask8kase to reply to my post. Im not trying to argue but thought I had some valid points. Beat me into submission as you will bask8kace. Im intrested in this topic because I would like to think I can start moving into lower doses with consistant gains. But I need some more valid infoi. Im 255lbs as of right now. Ive been as heavy as 277lbs and would like to be a 300lb monster. how would you suggest I do this without increasing my doses.

Please explain, Once again hands down your more intelligent than me and am just here so learn. I just need it explained to me for my goals.

If you want me to PM you bask8kace i will because I want your opinion as to what to do next.

Once again Im not wanting to debate you ( im not in a position to) I just want to continue to learn how to be more productive.