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  1. #1
    Scooby's Avatar
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    Question The Best Cycle to Gain Mass

    I Have a friend who currently weighs around 160 and has been working out for about 9 years.. he believes he has reached his natural potential... he is 25 and wants to start a good solid mass cycle...

    I'm not a steriod expert at all so i want your guys opinion on the best cycle to gain Mass.

    The Products he has at hand are as follows

    Sustanon 250 (with abundance)
    Deca (with abundance)
    Winstrol (with abundance)
    Clomid (in abundance)
    D-bol (in abundance)
    Equipose (its a little Expensive but it he can get some)
    Novadex (Can be obtained)

    ***Question, if the bottle is 100mg (Equipose) then after you open it, how much do you mix with your shots, and how many times a week)..

    Ok.. Please suggest a great Bulking cycle with those products...He is planning to gain as much as possible...but take under consideration that this is his first ever cycle and he doesnt want too many side affects..


    Thanx a bunch
    Scoobs


  2. #2
    BIG TEXAN's Avatar
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    Sustanon - 500mg wk 1-10
    deca - 400mg wk 1-10
    d-bol- 35-40mg ED wk 1-4
    winni- 50mg ED wk 6-12
    clomid- 300mg, 100mg 10 days, 50mg 10 days

  3. #3
    Scooby's Avatar
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    Thanx BIG TEXAN... Sounds good..

    Anything one else? keep in mind that for his first cycle.. isnt it best to use.. maybe less drugs?... I'm no expert..

    But maybe like 2 of them would be good? i dunno.. you tell me..

    Thanx
    scoobs

  4. #4
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    nj_
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    Tell him to get some test enanthate , sust isn't worth running if you can't run it EOD IMO.

    Tell him to run this...
    wk 1-4 dbol @ 25-30mg/ed
    wk 1-10 enanthate @ 400mg/wk
    wk 1-10 eq @ 400mg/wk
    wk 8-13 winny @ 50mg/ed

  5. #5
    Scooby's Avatar
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    EOD? as in Every Other day.... there is plenty of sust to go around bro.. he can get plenty of that..

  6. #6
    Scooby's Avatar
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    Plus.. i dont think he can get Enanthate as cheaply as Sust over here

  7. #7
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    I don't like dbols, so if he can get some Prop that would be my choice.
    If not dbols will be fine. I'm also weary of Decca but it is best for mass.
    You say the EQ is expensive? It's more than the Decca? Thats strange. Anyway this is what I would suggest after he researches each drug and weighs the possible effects(good/bad) for them.

    Mass:
    Wks1-4 40mgDbol ED(Prop if he can get it)
    Wks1-10 400mg Decca
    Wks1-11 400mg Sust(Enanathate is better IMO)
    Clomid 2wks after last test shot:300mg-day one, 100mg-10 days, 50mg-10days
    Nolva on hand and Bromocritpine

  8. #8
    nj_'s Avatar
    nj_
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    Originally posted by Scooby
    EOD? as in Every Other day.... there is plenty of sust to go around bro.. he can get plenty of that..
    Sust will give inconsistent blood levels due to the prop content if only shot twice weekly, you will still see results but you would get better results with enanthate or cypionate . The reason I said its not worth using is if this is his first cycle there is no need to go over 500mg/wk test, shooting sust EOD would mean he is injecting up to a gram a week depending on how you calculate your weeks. Way too much for a beginner cycle.

  9. #9
    The Butcher's Avatar
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    Given that this is your friend's first cycle, why not put him on something light and simple and see how he responds? Maybe it's just old school thinking, but my guess is that he could get quite a bit of mass by just taking 500mg/week of sus for 10 weeks. I say this b/c my 3rd cylce consisted of that, and I gained 25 pounds. Not to mention the fact that I was 6'6" tall and weighed 260lbs at the time. I would think that if I could get those results with so little, your friend (at 100lbs lighter) could certainly get similar results. Why not save the other compounds for later cycles when your body no longer responds to just one type of gear? The cycles suggested will certainly put on size, but I feel like he could save the other compounds for later to get better gains in the future. If he wanted to, he could stack the Deca @ 400mg/week with the Sus. I would use the orals later on. Or, do a 10 week cycle w/the Sus, take a few weeks off and use clomid, etc., then start back with a Deca/Winni cycle (400 mg/week Deca & 50 mg/eod of Winni) to get cut up a little for another 8 to 10 weeks. Just my .02

  10. #10
    Scooby's Avatar
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    The Butcher.. Yeah thats what i was thinking.. I like that Idea... Equipose here is like 6 times as expensive as Deca ... Crazy as hell cuz its imported i think...But 10 weeks on sust can sounds like resonable.. i dont want him getting all ****ed up or anything or scare him out of AS..

    Everyones Posts have been great.. Try to work with what with the list i've given ya cuz those are they products we can get forsure...His eating cycle is typical for bulking.. 4000-6000 cal/day with lots of protien.. His not taking any supplements though...His work out schedule is spot on...

    Keep it coming guys.. theses cycles look real good.. thanx a bunch

    scoobs

  11. #11
    Mike62200 is offline Associate Member
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    hey bro big texans cycle look good. if this is his first time hes gonna do good on it. if your worried about blood levels or whatever then shoot 1/2cc EOD. thats still 500mg week.

  12. #12
    Sigmund Froid is offline Associate Member
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    Let's clarify something. If the goal is simply mass, then testosterone is the way to go. Now, if you really, really want to maximize the mass scientifically, you will have to stimulate muscle growth from every possible angle. To quote Bill Roberts:

    "The practical application of this is that one should not use only a steroid which is good at some things but not others. Examples of this would be Deca and Primobolan (good agonists of the AR but this is not sufficient to make them outstanding anabolics) and Anadrol and Dianabol , which are weaker agonists of the AR yet effective anabolics. Combining drugs of one type with the other is synergistic. It may also be that testosterone and trenbolone are synergistic trenbolone is much more potent at the AR but (as seen with the Syrian hamster cells) testosterone has at least one activity that trenbolone does not. Winstrol has metabolic properties that testosterone lacks.

    Right now I would say that all bases are covered with testosterone plus trenbolone plus (Dianabol or Anadrol) plus Winstrol. I am not sure that there is no overlap: perhaps the activities of testosterone are covered by the other three."

    Again, if you just want to gain mass, then you should be doing testosterone at 1,000mg per week and then add to that with the other drugs for a synergistic effect. Of course, there will be side effects at this dosage, but if you want the best cycle to gain mass, it will have to have a test base of at least 1,000mg. You said it was his first cycle and most people will disagree with 1 gram doses. But, if you do your research, you will see that nearly any steroid "guru" or person with a degree in pharmacology will advocate big doses for a first cycle. I know it flies in the face of the dogma that most people like to put out there about old school ideas regarding "building up to large doses," but I'm afraid that just isn't based in science. Relatively recently, science has provided information to suggest receptor UPregulation in regard to steroid use . The reason people have to continually increase their dosages is not because steroids affect them less the more they take them. That would suggest some sort of weird tolerance or immunity to steroids. That just is not the case. The truth is that the increase in body mass is what is responsible for larger doses - tolerance is not responsible for it. It's simple. A child needs less of any drug because of their body mass. An adult needs more because of his body mass. Similarly, you gain weight after your first cycle, and that weak ass dose of 250mg of sust per week just isn't going to cut it anymore.

    It is true that 1000mg does not give you double the results that 500mg dose. However, it does make a big difference, and the side effects are not much worse if you take precautions. Of course, you will gain well on 500mg of test. But if you really are just interested in mass, why not do a gram per week? Our friend The Butcher gained 25lb off of 500mg of sust per week. That is damn good. But imagine if he did 1,000mg? It wouldn't be 50lb instead of 25lb, but it would still be a substantially larger gain. It really just comes down to what your goals are and what you are doing to get them.

    Also, the body doesn't stop responding to just one type of gear. The body mass increases and you either have to increase the dosage of that one gear, or increase the total dosage by adding other gear. Adding other gear is great for synergy - assuming you pick intelligently.

    I have heard reliable accounts of people gaining as much as 40lbs off their first cycle of a gram of test per week (of course, some of that is water and fat)

    However, your friend doesn't want too many side effects, and that changes everything. He should just do more research into ancillary medications and see if he can't help curb some of the unwanted side effects while still gaining well. Proscar to protect the hair and prostate, nolvadex and clomid to protect from bitch tits. Maybe a some HCG to keep ball size mid cycle. Otherwise, research, good luck, and have fun.

    -SF

  13. #13
    The Butcher's Avatar
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    Sigmund, I agree with some of what you have said, but I have a question regarding needing more gear to create an effect b/c of an increase in bodyweight. You essentially said that it is not a build up of a tolerance to AS, but rather bodyweight that is requiring the higher doses. In other words the original dose of (hypothetically) 250 mgs of Sus would no longer be effective b/c of the increased body mass. If that were solely the case, then I would think that Scooby's friend would gain a heck of alot more than the 25lbs I did since his body weight is 100lbs less than mine was at the time of my cycle. So, seems like this guy could gain 30-35 pounds on 500mg/week.

    I have seen guys gain nearly 40 pounds on a cycle. They started out looking like Flex Wheeler in competition form, and ended up looking like Lee Priest in his off season. So, 40 lbs is certainly doable. But why put on 20 pounds of fat just to get 40 lbs? Why not put on 20 pounds of muscle and leave the fat off? We all know he would look a hell of alot bigger (and better) at 180lbs and ripped, than at 200lbs and fat.

    The other problem I have with throwing a newbie on 1000mg/week of test is that it's impossible to tell if this guy is prone to get bitch tits. Some people just look at test and go up a cup size. Maybe this guy is like that, and 1000mg/week of Sus is certainly going to cause a bit more of a problem than 500. True, you mentioned that sides won't be much more if precautions are taken, but if the guy can put on 25 lbs of muscle at half the dose (and cost), why not just do that?

    One more question, Sigmund. And I am asking this as a genuine question b/c I am admittedly undecided about the whole upregulation/saturation debate. My first cycles were all very light b/c of a fear of sides. I now know that I am one of the lucky ones who gets almost no sides even when taking 1600mg/week of test, 3 drol/day, and 800mg/week of Deca . I have discounted the saturation effect b/c I agreed more with your statements about it being a bit absurd to build up a weird tolerance for AS. However, after having been mostly "on" test for the past year, I have reached a plateu at 290 lbs. I was 290lbs when I was maintaining with a maintenance dose of 750mg/week of test, and I was still 290lbs. after 5 weeks of 1600mg/week of T400, 3 drol/day, and 800mg/week of Deca. I will admit that I might have lost 5 lbs of fat while gaining 5 lbs of muscle, but this would seem to suggest that I have indeed built up some sort of tolerance or oversaturation to AS. Test in particular. I have decided to take some time off, and hit the hcg /anti-e. But, why would you guess, given your hypothesis, that I did not gain anything on the last "cycle" I took? And yes, my diet and training are thoroughly thought out. Thanks for your input.

  14. #14
    Sigmund Froid is offline Associate Member
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    Butcher, you raise a number of interesting points.

    He probably could make decent gains with 500mg per week. Starting at 1000mg per week will give better results. It will not mean an increase in body fat. Testosterone does not make you fat at large dosages. However, the more test you use, the more aromatization there is, and therefore, more water retention. This can be fought off by using adequate amounts of arimidex /anastrozole. 500mg will give him more gains than 250mg. 750mg will give him more gains than 500mg. 1000mg will give him some more gains than 750mg. I suspect that 500mg will give him much better results than 250mg. 1000mg will make a less dramatic difference than 750mg when compared to the difference between 250mg and 500mg. The higher you get, the closer you get to the maximum growth potential of any drug. For example, 200,000mg of test per week (haha) would probably not make much a difference compared to 150,000mg. You reach a point where you just can't utilize anymore of the drug. And of course, doubling dosages doesn't double gains, though it will make a very noticable difference. So, we can agree that while he can gain very well on 500mg, he will gain better on 1000mg.

    However, you brought up an excellent point. Who knows how sensitive he is to side effects? Starting with a high dose could be very dangerous because of that uncertainty. Because of that consideration, you can make a reasonable argument for starting lower at 500mg.

    As for you being 290lbs and not being able to gain substantially, consider this. Isn't there a biological limit to chemically assisted growth? I mean, sure there is a natural biological limit, but wouldn't this idea have to apply to steroid induced growth too? If not, then people could gain infinitely, and reach weights of 10,000lbs. It just isn't humanly possible at some point.

    The first cycle is not the best cycle because of your "virgin receptors," but because you are so far away from that biological limit. The more you gain, and thus, the more cycles you do, the less you will gain, unless you continually raise your dosage. At some point, though (100,000,000mg [haha]) the increase isn't really going to matter. Otherwise, we could have people at 10,000lbs juicing 100,000,000kg of test per week and still gaining. Your body has to plateau at some point. You seem to be approaching that at 290lbs. Perhaps you have plateued indefinitely. Perhaps you just need to boost your dose even more. You are at a weight that many pros are at. This calls for professional dosages. Some pros do more than 2,000mg at that weight, in fact, I would imagine a lot do.

    If your diet is good and your training is thought out like you say, and I'm sure you also mean that you are resting enough and not overtraining, that only leaves one problem area - drugs. Of course, you could still be missing something in the other areas, so its nice to double check. But if you insist everything is ok, then I would increase the dosage of testosterone. Also, I would try a stack that combines particular drugs that attack the body from different angles. That Bill Roberts quote I attached on my earlier post should be helpful. Also, I would guess that you could still possibly work through this plateau simply by virtue of the fact that weight loss has a similar problem. You make progress, you grind to a halt, then you wait it out and you end up making more progress by continuing your efforts and not getting discouraged. If everything is perfect in your program and you are not gaining on your present cycles, try increasing the drugs. I'm sure you can work through this.

    Good luck,
    -SF

  15. #15
    DHARB is offline Junior Member
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    Good points, I enjoyed yoor posts.

  16. #16
    guice12 is offline New Member
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    my first cycle ever was 500mg of sust and 400mg of deca for 9 wks and i went from 145lbs to 169lbs so i say 500mg of sust and 400 of deca will do the job if he eats enough. dont over do it on your 1st cycle

  17. #17
    guice12 is offline New Member
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    i meant from 145lbs to 179lbs

  18. #18
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    Sig and Butcher... I enjoyed reading your post.. You fed off each other alot and i myself learned some.. so thanx.

    Info always welcome.

    We're hopin to see some good gains with the sust and a bit of deca alone...after that maybe some winstrol to get ripped..

    Scoobs

  19. #19
    Hitman's Avatar
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    ok maybe i have missed something here but your mate is only 160lbs at 25 yrs with 9 years training? maybe its the fact thats hes over training and not replenishing his food intake, i mean 160lbs is **** all.Whats his workout schedule\suppliments etc... there might be other ways to help your friend naturally before the use of AS. Also just adding to big texans post the sustanon will be the last acting test in your friends system so clomid would be started in the third week after the last shot at 300mg day 1 then 100mg for the next 10days then 50 mg for the folowing 10 days.Thats just my thoughts on it so if ive missed some detail in the grand scheme of things please forgive me.....HITMAN

  20. #20
    Sigmund Froid is offline Associate Member
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    guice: 500mg of sust and 400mg of deca is 900mg of gear per week. Sure, its not as powerful as 1000mg of test, but its still alot of gear. I think that is a good cycle. Hell, it put 34lbs on you! Good work. I think a similar cycle should work well for scooby's friend.

  21. #21
    Scooby's Avatar
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    well 160 is pretty big for him i guess.. he started off at like 130 and has gained 30 pounds of solid muscle from working out.. The 9 year have been on and off.. He feels like at the age his at its ok for him to do AS..

    For his first cycle the sust and deca shouldnt be to bad of a deal..if he wants to gain more after that then we can start talking about the big numbers and the complex cycles.. till then.. i think the simple but good cycles will do? agree?

  22. #22
    Sigmund Froid is offline Associate Member
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    yes scooby. 500mg test, 300mg deca sounds good. maybe use some dbol to jumpstart the cycle, so you aren't waiting 3 weeks for gains. If this cycle works out well and the side effects can be controlled, then the next cycle should have a base of 1,000mg test (if mass is what you really want).

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