12-10-2002, 09:04 PM #1
fina/winny cycle, anything i forgot?
hey everyone, started my fina/winny cycle yesterday, ill be running 5-8 weeks, hanvt completely decided yet, but i have enough for 8 weeks, im running fina 75mg/ED and winny 50mg/ED, i didn't pick up any bromo but i do have access incase anything goes wrong, i got cranberry extract, milk thistle, ALA, and saw palmetto along with plenty of h20 and cranberry juice, anything im forgetting? i gained 20lbs on that last bulking cylce (8 weeks, 600eq/750enant), and now i want to chisle what i gained down from 245 to around 215-225, i been doing cardio 30min around 4-5x weekly AFTER working out, and my diet is down to around 2400-3000 calories, anything you wanna add? thanks everyone, take care
12-10-2002, 11:13 PM #2Senior Member
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
I think the calories sound low for your weight.
Good luck on that cycle, please keep us posted.
12-10-2002, 11:31 PM #3
Looks good does fina keep mr happy down. Might want to throw in some proviron or a small amount of prop if that is a problem.
12-11-2002, 04:58 AM #4
yah, calories are low, thats the lowest im going though, just to give you some idea, usually im around 3000, but im also 20%+ bf, so i wanna keep them relatively low...rickson, lol, no hasn't done anything yet, i have cialis and test prop around just incase, but i usually dont have a problem, thanks for the replies guys, ill keep everyone updated, take care
12-11-2002, 05:07 AM #5Senior Member
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
- FL to NY
if you really want to burn fat do the cardio in the mornin on empty stomach. imo i would get the bromo bf hand. and clomid at the end. good luck that is a kick ass cycle. did mine 5 weeks and gained 9lb of lean muscle.
12-11-2002, 05:56 AM #6
thanks HB, i can have the bromo overnighted if i need it, and i hav ethe clomid on hand for post cycle, cardio in the morning is difficult due to my work schedule, but ill try to fit it in there a few days a week, take care bro
12-11-2002, 06:23 AM #7
Hey dj brotha, Id add the Prop in there for 4 or 5 weeks and run the fina 8 weeks. Good luck bro!
12-11-2002, 08:59 AM #8
og, thanks for the advice bro, always nice when i get peoples responses who i value, prop usually makes me sick for some reason though, dunno if my body doens't like the propionate ester or what, ill throw it in if i get some dick problems, but i think ill leave it out for now...another question for those of you that know about dieting, if im cutting calories significantly, (like i am doing), and doing cardio (even more stress), the body is goin to release cortisol undoubtedly, but the intake of fina and winny should compete for those receptors and i should maintain all muscle mass if not gain some in the meantime considering my <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a> intake is high enough...? i guess my question is while losing fat(my main concern) i should be preserving mass and possibly even adding a bit here and there...am i right in my thinking or no? all advice is welcome, thanks everyone, take care
12-11-2002, 09:09 AM #9
Hey dj bro, thxs and i value ur knowledge also!! Suxs that Prop makes u sick! I really liked it as a kick start to my cycle. U might want to try Proviron then.
Yes bro i think u should try and preserve some mass while losing fat. But just remember muscle weights more then fat. So keep an eye on ur bf and if thats going down but ur weight is staying the same or going up is a good thing. Good luck bro!!
12-11-2002, 09:27 AM #10
hey dj bro definaely should add the prop in there,ur allready hittig the fina u van just mix them u will see better resualts !!plus it will keep the skipper workin !
12-11-2002, 12:16 PM #11
12-11-2002, 01:55 PM #12Senior Member
- Join Date
- Jan 2002
looks good dj, good luck.
12-11-2002, 02:03 PM #13Originally posted by djdjdjddjon
thanks for the replies guys, muchly appreciated...i read somewhere that proviron limits the usefullness of test and DHT, so i think im going to keep it out...take care guys
Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated DHT. Like Masteron , but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. DHT is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for DHT in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to DHT by way of the same enzyme when low levels of DHT are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.
Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.
The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.
Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.
Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone , with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone , nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone , or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.
Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid , as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.
Stacking and Use:
Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.
The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the DHT can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since DHT levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.
It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone , boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.
Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this DHT can increase the blood pressure.
12-11-2002, 05:13 PM #14
agh, thanks bro, i was thinking of proscar, my fault...lol...look under that DHT link of mine, it explains what i was thinking of, take care and thanks again for your time/thoughts/opinions...
12-13-2002, 04:53 AM #15
not sure if this is placebo or im actually feeling the winny/fina(4 days into cycle), but i was much stronger/more endurance for triceps yesterday (or maybe it was the adderall and eca, haha)...nevertheless im also very agressive/irritated...hope this calms down a bit im pretty snappy over just about anything/nothing...
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