short cycle question

[juicedup8]

a bunch of friends are doing 100 dbol , and 500-750mg of prop. for for three weeks. they have to do it to beat testing , they want me to do this with them, is this a waste, or can u gain anything, and if so how much? thanks guys

[bigkev]

3 weeks isnt long enough to see real , keepable gains.

[atwa]

sure there are some gains to be made there.........but that is one short cycle. the prop is real fast acting........same as the d-bol. best of luck to ya. yours gains........if you train hard and eat right get plenty of sleep i see know reason why you cant put on 10 pounds or so.

[juicedup8]

thanks alot, guys, just wanted to hear what u guys had to say

[kizer_soce]

Short cycles are my favs bro, I have just started a 5 week cycle of tren prop winny and no ester equipoise . I have done 2/4 cycles (Bill roberts) and gained some good weight off of prop and fina before. I would try to run 4 weeks though to get some more size if you can run that long.

[kizer_soce]

Actually kev three weeks you might not get a ton of size but you will be more apt to keep the gains you do get b/c it will not take as long to recover the HPTA as it would on a 10 or 12 week cycle.

[bigkev]

why shut your htpa down for a 3 week cycle? your freinds are having a drug screen , not you. you could make far better gains on a real, 10 week cycle. i just feel you will be short changing yourself with such a short cycle.

what are your goals?

[kizer_soce]

I think everyone will agree with me here that the longer your HPTA is shut down the harder it is to get it going again. The entire purpose of the shorter cycles is to help you keep the weight you do put on by getting your natty test production back on track VERY quickly.

I do agree though that you should do it for yourself if you are interested in the short cycles. Why follow your friends if they are getting tested and you are not?

[bigkev]

i agree with you all the way on htpa and short cycles. definately easier to get it back up the shorter it is down.

i just feel 10 weeks on a cycle should be a minimum if you are looking to maximize muscle gains. 10 weeks in an anabolic state is 10 weeks of muscle growth. beats 3 weeks of anabolism anyway you look at it. given , you may have a harder time raising htpa after 10 weeks than you would after 3, but you also have alot more muscle to play with, not to mention strength. then there's clomid to throw in the mix.
no matter what your cycle or how long, you will lose quite a bit when you come off. and coming off of dbol after 3 weeks, with no back up to keep running, you are looking at a major loss of gains.

not discounting you at all bro, just adding my opinion.

[kizer_soce]

No doubt brother you will certainly gain more strength and size if you are on gear for 10 weeks vs 5. I am just testing a theory on the situation, a guinea pig of sorts.

I am theorizing here when I say this bro so bear with me, lol.

I think that it really would work out about the same. I think the amount you drop from a 10 week cycle would be relative to the amount you drop on a 5 week cycle. I am speaking in terms of percentage not exact lbs. I just think the shorter cycles would be easier on you body b/c there would be less time your HPTA is suppressed thus allowing you to spend more time cycling without causing permanent damage.

Oh and I agree coming off three weeks of dbol is gonna be real shitty. Back before I knew anything I did a six week cycle of 50mg/d dbol. I gained about 24lbs in 6 weeks and lost 24 in 3. I do think by stacking the prop it will help with the crash though. Personally I don't really like dbol or anadrol all that much. I hate the bloat that comes with em so I avoid them now and look more for quality than quantity. Also when you are doing ed shots of tren and prop it gets REAL old sticking yourself 70-84 times a cycle, lol.

[bigkev]

i see your point for sure soce. the more frequent adjustments your body will have to make could be hard on you also with the short cycles. keep me posted on your progress with this bro, got me interested now!

i dont bloat much at all from dbol . i am lucky as i dont seem to retain water from anything. i to stay away from a50. i think it is totally over rated unless you are a competitive powerlifter. i recommend it to no one.

everyday injections are pretty bad also. i run out of injection sites.

at any rate, i appriciate the feed back. keep me posted on how this comes out bro. peace...

[juicedup8]

they are being tested by the sports program, and 3 weeks is there only time to get the edge.

[Big Al]

Are you guys stating that their is a direct relation between the lengh of cycle and the htpa recovery post cycle? Is there any studies on this?

Short-acting ester leave the body quicker than items such as deca , sus and Eq. So by switching to a short-acting ester in the final weeks of a cycle do we not improve post cycle recovery? We do not have to wait to start clomid treatment. I am inclined to believe and this is personal opinion that one of the key problems with many cycles is that there is a time lag between the end of the cycle and the commencement of clomid treatment, this is when there are decreasing amount of AAS in the systems, so gains stop but there is still enough in the system to keep htpa shut-down.

So the closer we start clomid treatment post cycle the more likely hood we have of keeping our gains.

I'm not saying I'm right here just curious as this is the logic I base my next cycle on, and your discussion interests be greatly.

[kizer_soce]

Big Al I definitely agree with switching to short acting esters as the cycle comes to a close. I just remember reading from I believe Bill Roberts that the longer the HPTA is shut down the harder it is to recover. I am not sure if he had specific evidence backing his claim but I will certainly look into it.

Oh and Big kev, yeah 14cc's a week is gonna be a pain in the ass and thigh and shoulder and bi's and tri's and calfs.......................

[Mr. Nobody]

Read the two studies in the ester post.
100mg of deca shut down people in 5 days and kept them down for up to 32 days from one shot!

The other study on suppression of the HPT axis shows that 250mg and 500mg/week caused shut down to ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, in 2 weeks! NANANANANA!

100mg/week of test caused shut down in 5-6 wks.

EOD!

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

decadon
AF Member posted 03-23-2001 09:24 AM
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other than anavar and primo what are the quickest hpta forgiving roids...I am guessing that deca is among the worst
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Posts: 139 | Registered: 02-15-2001

Decaman
THE ANTI-TEST posted 03-23-2001 09:32 AM
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This one ougtha get interesting


I AM THE NEW PANTY RAIDER!



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Posts: 1418 | From: DECALAND | Registered: 11-09-2000

Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need! posted 03-23-2001 10:06 AM
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Yea it will, because like I said....

Those that made it up were liars or just very bad at looking at any evidence at all. If you look at the IA study you see it is over 20 yrs old! Pretty hard to miss that if you are gonna be a professional writer and want to create a new method! Or could it be that they just wanted to dupe people into buying their mags and shit so they chose to ignore it to the detriment of all their readers? Wouldn't be the first time people in the nutrition industry did crap like that!
Now that's embarrassing!

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

Ivan Drago
AF Member posted 03-23-2001 10:33 AM
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Just wondering...

If anybody who practiced short cycles did run blood test after, and what were results.
I know,that MeanOne claims that some of his clients did blood test after short cycles and were back to normal after 3-4 weeks.I don't believe him too much,so would be interesting to know if anybody else did it...
Drexx,Mr.Nobody????
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Posts: 608 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000

DSPO
Sniper posted 03-23-2001 10:53 AM
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I hear DREXX, MR. Nobody and Bchemist right around the corner.
“Knowledge allows you greater possibilities”...Dan Duchaine



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Posts: 400 | Registered: 12-10-2000

Mr. Nobody
RUMPELSTILZCHEN posted 03-23-2001 11:02 AM
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Mr. Nobody here

I am 5 weeks post my 2nd FWC, and I did a blood test 3 days ago, but have to wait for my results, the test was for total or free testosterone (forgot), thyroid and glucose ordered by my urologist. I wanted to wait for the results to post.
I'll keep you all informed.
Incidently, I have a sneaky suspicion, that the enanthate at 1200mg on day one combined with the tren at 75mg/day propably did a very good job of suppression.
ANIMAL: the subject NEVER was avoiding suppression but RAPID RECOVERY!
I shall see when I am getting my test results back. If I am still suppressed, than FUCK THE FWC.
Having said that, I still think it could work with different drugs such as prop and dbol . But I won't try, my next one will be a big one either way.

BTW: ANIMAL: Did you get my email in regards to bromocriptine/clomid combo? If not, my question was, if you still advocate bromo to support recovery.......

Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.

[This message was edited by Mr. Nobody on 03-23-2001 at 10:56 AM.]


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Posts: 913 | Registered: 11-30-2000

Slopain
Shriveled Numbnutz posted 03-23-2001 11:27 AM
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My scientific evidence is: I hate the fango wango cycles - I like to be ON not OFF. No reasoning behind that other than I make better gains the more I am on.
- If you want 1 year of prosperity, grow grain. If you want 10 years of prosperity, grow trees. If you want 100 years of prosperity, grow people. -





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Posts: 460 | Registered: 11-14-2000

Ivan Drago
AF Member posted 03-23-2001 11:39 AM
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I read that abstract ...

and may be I'm missing something,but seems that study doesn't contradict short cycles theory.Hypothalamus is suppressed completely,and pituitery takes a little longer.That's the whole idea of faster recovery,so...?
Besides,using esters like enanthate or cypionate is being on the edge of breaking the line were short cycle become conventional.Orals and short acting test are a way to go.
Of course,it's not scientific study,and may be,he is just lying,but Bill Roberts's client used dbol only for 2 weeks(50mg/day)with Clomid(50mg/eod),then continue Clomid 50mg/ed for 3 weeks.Run blood test and it shows that he's back to normal.Gained 13lbs. and kept 10 of them.
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Posts: 608 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000

Mr. Nobody
RUMPELSTILZCHEN posted 03-23-2001 11:55 AM
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I agree ID. Enanthate is pushing the limits. However this suppression vers. recovery is very subjective and should be assesed individually. 2 weeks would be a guide line. But as stated above, tren is short acting, but could have lasting affects on the hpta (it attaches to receptors very tightly) and would therefore be also a poor choice. Long time ago I asked the board that question, but the answer was: Do blood tests to be sure.
Bottom line: You must do tests to know for sure, and I am doing mine. However are my results representative for everybody: NO
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.



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Posts: 913 | Registered: 11-30-2000

Ivan Drago
AF Member posted 03-23-2001 12:06 PM
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Hm,of course,it's very individual,but Tren is very poor example.Because of it having something to do with progesteron(I'm not sure,how it works) it effects HPTA like anything else,beside Nandrolone .I think, Tren should be considered exception and shouldn't be used in short cycle.
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Posts: 608 | From: New York, NY, U.S.A. | Registered: 12-04-2000

Mr. Nobody
RUMPELSTILZCHEN posted 03-23-2001 01:35 PM
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Bump for the Animal reply
Disclaimer:
Mr. Nobody is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way, shape or form encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances or the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.



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Posts: 913 | Registered: 11-30-2000

DREXX
Crisco Stock Shareholder posted 03-23-2001 04:56 PM
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I like fango-wango's better because....
1) On regular cycle I get 95% of my gains in 4 weeks and then the gains slow to a halt no matter what I do.

2) After a regular cycle I lose as much as 50% of my gains after 6 weeks off even when I use clomid, glutamine, creatine and increase protein intake.

3) After a long cycle I generally feel depressed while waiting for my natural hormone levels to get back to normal.

With a Fango-Wango's I take advantage of my best gaining period, I don't lose as much and I feel good even off cycle.

Fango's may disrupt the HPTA more than what Bill Roberts suggest but it's not as bad as being on for a longer period.

I think the H might get shutdown but not that P and T.

Either way it's not important for me.

I have 3 good reason's for doing these cycles and that's enough for me.

The only exception is for pre-contest then a 12 week cycle is perfect so that you have 12 weeks of time for intense dieting and cardio while the AAS takes care of not losing mass.

If it's not hard it's not worth doing...


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Posts: 894 | Registered: 11-10-2000

MR. BMJ
THE INTIMIDATOR posted 03-23-2001 06:14 PM
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The IA study was proposed in Oct. 1997.
Here is one OLDER study that I found.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

MR. BMJ

[This message was edited by MR. BMJ on 03-23-2001 at 05:20 PM.]

[This message was edited by MR. BMJ on 03-23-2001 at 05:23 PM.]


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Posts: 207 | Registered: 11-23-2000

Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot posted 03-24-2001 12:14 AM
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Well...

I'm not a believer that a FWC will keep you from suppressing your endogenous production. But, like Drexx, I am going to keep my cycles relatively short (4-6 wks) simply because I do not make any significant gains after that point.
However, the length of time before natural testosterone recovery in those studies may not be indicative of whe time it would take if clomid or *** were used.


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Posts: 478 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000

ontariowrestler
The Enigmatic One posted 03-24-2001 08:14 AM
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I will save my comments until I can read the full text of the second study. It may in fact help prove why 2 week cycles work.
Hopefully Ulter will let us know when it is availble to read.

I also briefly glanced at the study on deca, and it too, may be useful in showing why short cycles work. Unfortunately, they neglected to gather data equally on all the groups.

[This message was edited by ontariowrestler on 03-24-2001 at 08:06 AM.]


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Posts: 116 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: 11-10-2000

Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need! posted 03-24-2001 08:31 AM
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How much more does it take!

So many have to cling on to the last bit of hope that something will work when all evidence points against.
1 shot of 100mg Npp or deca shut down people. 100mg of AS in the IA study shut people down. Read the recycling of AS from depots and you really believe that every AS molecule you take orally goes right into the muscle. Hehe! While you may be done taking the no ester as, the AS will still be being 'recycled' into the blood stream by coming from the fat cells.

When the FDA looked at prohormomes which are basically AS structures without esters, the pros met all criteria including hormonal suppression!
The reason they aren't illegal is that the pros don't fit the same as AS when taken orally by not causing any increase in performance or growth.

The ester is irrelevant! The ester is REMOVED by esterases as soon as the AS hits the blood.
The HPT IS NOT seeing an ester or not seeing an ESTER! It is seeing AS structures. That is discussed in the Minto study and others.

Yes, deca and tren and other synthetics of the 19nor genre, will shut down the HPT harder because they slow nerve growth. However, that didn't matter in the IA study when testosterone was used!
HPT recovery was still very delayed!

Now, if you go back and read the original hype and written version of the fangowangocycle where 'they said' they did blood tests, they say the reason is to stop shutdown and allow the HPT to recover faster.

With all that above we can see neither of those is true in the least. Furthermore as they advocate use of clomid, that extends greater levels of AS hitting the HPT for even longer! I suggest you look at the minto study where they discuss what and only what LH can do to/for endo testosterone.
(I knew many would miss that)

Clomid does not and there is nothing that will clear the HPT and even if you still believed that 2 weeks won't shut you down in the face of all the evidence, you are now extending it to 4 weeks via 2 weeks of clomid!

It should have been amazing enough for people to see that the HPT can be shut down in 5-7 days, but I guess it must not be real. Nevertheless, the HPT does not see esters and type of AS would not really matter much at all

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

ontariowrestler
The Enigmatic One posted 03-24-2001 09:23 AM
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I would like to read the minto study, do you know where it is available online? The thing I found was Dr. Cathy Minto's Research Study
Looking at Vaginal Size, and I am pretty sure that is not what you are referring to.
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Posts: 116 | From: Ontario, Canada | Registered: 11-10-2000

Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need! posted 03-24-2001 10:41 AM
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My vaj is quite tight, but

here's the real one.
Damn they are into AS and vaj. That's a research team I might work for!

The Minto et al article can be read in full at http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/281/1/93#F2

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot posted 03-24-2001 11:10 AM
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LOL @ Ontariowrestler!
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Posts: 478 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000

JimLayhoe
TAPEWORM posted 03-24-2001 07:17 PM
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JIM LAYHOE [email protected]



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Posts: 309 | From: ontario | Registered: 02-11-2001

MONSTROSITY
STRENGTH AND HONOR posted 03-24-2001 07:26 PM
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Animal you say that short cycles are garbage.......well what exactly do you recommend? 8-10 week cycles? Then a 8-10 week layoff from AS? You also confused me with your comment on clomid, are you for it's use or against it?
Thanks Bro!

[img]http://www.crowescorner.com/gladpics/3.jpg
[/img]


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Posts: 185 | Registered: 11-21-2000

Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need! posted 03-25-2001 10:58 AM
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Yes, they are garbage!

First go back and read the ass family member who conjured up the fangowango. There were no follow up studies of LH, FSH, EVER!
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/281/1/93#F2


No, the minto study shows that recovery will take
8-32 days. Hmmm, 4 weeks is 28 days isn't it?
So 2 weeks on and then 2 weeks clomid which will further saturate the HPT is gonna put you PAST the HPT clearance/recovery pd. Now, it is well know and documented and discussed usually yearly at the national meeting of sports science medicine that it takes anywhere from 4-6 mos to recover from HPT saturation. And while that's long cycles, it's still indicative. I believe that those other studies using the testosterones showed long recovery pds when I read them in full as well.

Generation of gains in NEW strength and not strength from creatine affects, comes on in 4-6 weeks because that's how long it takes for new innervation and muscle training to begin!

And from the other study posted you can see when you get the max AS in the blood stream is quite awhile!

NP was given to 5 healthy men in doses of 100 mg/week for the first 3 weeks followed by 200 mg/week for 10 further weeks. Serum NT levels increased gradually and maximal concentrations were reached in the 13th treatment week (20.2 +/- 3.4 nmol/l). Measurable amounts of NT were detectable for 19 weeks after the last injection. The study shows that NT accumulates under this treatment regime and wider spacing of the injection intervals may be possible in future trials.

And again, the comment was made that 'ester is important in a fangowango', but since Te and Tcyp are the same as for release rates and both peak in 1-2 days and are gone in 2 weeks, that would be perfect, wouldn't it? 2 weeksis the FWC mantra, right?

The recommend orals, right? Well, winny is an oral, but it's metabolites can be detected for 6 mos now so I guess orals aren't gone as fast as they say they are!

And then we have the oral nandrolone prohormones that people keep getting busted for. Those are orals, correct? Surely they aren't all taking them up to the day of competition, but they are still showing up!

Part of it is A ring baby! The AS metabolites they look for come from breakdown of the A ring if I remember correctly. Other AS orals could STILL BE THERE, but when the A ring is broken they look like a testosterone metabolite, so don't fool yourself that just because a metabolite isn't being detected in a tested competition, that the AS isn't still there!

(I wish I could find that section of one study on the recycling of the Tp, damnit!)

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

Anabolicum Mr.
'Test' Pilot posted 03-25-2001 01:03 PM
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Animal,
There is a huge difference between an AS metabolite and the parent steroid . Most metabolites are biologically inactive and incapable of binding to the AR and/or ER. Therefore, I *doubt* that the metabolites would have an effect on restoration of the HPT.


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Posts: 478 | From: Canada, Eh! | Registered: 11-10-2000

Animal
Prohormones, creatine, HMB and hGH stimulating amino acids are all I will EVER need! posted 03-26-2001 09:39 AM
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That's not what I said!

How do you decide on which AS to take?
All esters are removed nearly immediately upon entrance to the bloodstream, therefore, all you have muscle and HPT and whatever else seeing is THE PARENT molecule. 'AS structure' we'll call it because prohormones have that same 'parent structure' and can affect the muscle and HPT as well. Now, that AS structure goes everywhere including fat cells, etc. And that's even if the parent AS is the worst at binding to the AR as a molecule like Winny is.

Ok, so all we have is that AS structure in the cells even if it is from an oral. How do you or anybody know how long it takes for that AS structure to clear totally from the body! From what the 'experts' say?

NO! We can look at drug tests which is what I was saying. Now, if the parent molecule is around in the fat cell and that parent AS structure molecule is required to make a metabolite that can be detected, then that is indicative of how long the AS ACTUALLY IS PRESENT!

If you are getting positive tests for a metabolite 6 weeks after an oral is stopped as is the case in W and any form of nandrolone (prohormones), then I'd say the parent AS structure is still around to produce that metabolite as the metabolite is eliminated in the urine rather quickly.

To have a metabolite you must have the existance of the parent AS! (and it would have to be around fairly recently)

And all I was saying in my previous post is how it interesting that the same orals keep showing up in drug tests and those orals are either 19's like the nandrolone prohormones, or winstrol . NOt many, if any are getting popped for taking anadrol and dianabol and we know they are so I threw out the idea that the reason is that the metabolite of the A and D looks like a test metabolite because we know that orals can stick around for months as is proven by positive tests regarding use of oral norprohormones and winstrol!

Anarchy in the USA!


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Posts: 438 | Registered: 11-14-2000

[Mr. Nobody]

previous post came from the hall of fame of the AF board

[Big Al]

Thanks fellas!

[The Iron Game]

Great post, thanks

[kizer_soce]

Wow I think I will be singing a different tune now. Hmm, I think I can stretch my cycle to 7weeks with my current concoctions.

Thanks for the great post mr. nobody