Will nolva be effective at clomid for post cycle? I cant seem to find any clomid..
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Will nolva be effective at clomid for post cycle? I cant seem to find any clomid..
Some people use it...I've seen research which proves it would be a feasible alternative..but personally I feel Clomid is still best. I've heard mixed results from people who used Nolva instead of Clomid for post cycle therapy. As for clomid...PM me, I can help you out.
its same thing just about, they are both weak estrogens, the mechanism is as follows: the weak estrogen will bind to estrogen receptors, send positive feed back to the hpta, and the positive feedback will results in the testes begining test production all over again (in a nutshell)...genenrally obseerved is clomid though, although i think they'll both do the job, good luck
Hey bro, IMO Nolvadex is a good addition to or substitute for Clomid. I had good results running Nolvadex throughout my last cycle and post along with Clomid. Check out Big Cats profile...
OG
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
ONE THING: if you end up using clomid it will increase spermatogenesis. In other words, if you decide to have unprotected sex you are at an increased chance of getting the woman pregnant. I would recommend taking a hard look since clomid in almost a necessity following a cycle. It will decrease losses seen as your testosterone levels get back to normal. Nolvadex is primarily used for when someone is taking high doses of test or some other steroid that can have detrimental side effects based on the increase in estrogen such as gyno, etc... (if there's any repitition it's because I simply wanted to abbreviate the previous post even though it provides exceptional tips and information)
I'm curious to know WHY someone would want to use Nolva instead of Clomid? From what I know, they are pretty much the same price...so why not just do Clomid? It's been used for years and years, and seems quite effective for all users.
Nolva has been used too ...Quote:
Originally posted by Terinox
I'm curious to know WHY someone would want to use Nolva instead of Clomid? From what I know, they are pretty much the same price...so why not just do Clomid? It's been used for years and years, and seems quite effective for all users.
Nolva is a weaker clomid though (in some aspects), I would opt to use Clomid/Aromasin combo.
-sk
agreed, clomid is relatively price friendly, and very effective, a life saver...and gain saver if you willQuote:
Originally posted by Terinox
I'm curious to know WHY someone would want to use Nolva instead of Clomid? From what I know, they are pretty much the same price...so why not just do Clomid? It's been used for years and years, and seems quite effective for all users.
OGPackin, just wanted to tune up a little of what you said. In the first place, both Nolvadex and Clomid are Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERM's). The word "selective" is important, because in some tissues the SERM's act as an estrogen, while in others they antagonize the estrogen receptors (blocking them). This is of particular interest in men in general and AAS users in particular, because they seem to act as estrogens at just the right places, but anti-estrogens in just the right places. This imparts MANY healthful benefits for men. The respective indications for the two are of no consequence: both are of the same class of drug. Also, the correct dose for Clomid is 50mg QD, therefore you are comparing very similar dosages, but it amounts to one Clomid, but several Nolvadex, so Nolvadex is more expensive to use. On the issue of HCG post cycle, I could not disagree with you more. Why on earth would you add a medication suppressive of the HPTA when you are trying to end suppression of the HPTA? That makes no sense, and actually increases the time necessary for recovery. Remember, suppression happens too fast, recovery is too slow. Also, the body does not produce estrogen to "overcompensate for the reduced levels of testosterone". If it did, then the estrogen would be suppressive at the hypothalamus, and would decrease natural testosterone production even more. lower testosterone produces less estrogen, not more. There is no proven difference between them in terms of recovery ability; the study you are probably citing used, for some reason, Clomid at three times recommended dose. Definitely not fair. I'd like the reference for Clomid's "irreversible eye damage" please (that would be something I need to know about). Thank you.
Swale, so are you for novla or clomid post cycle, or do you think they are the same..?
Solid-d, this is a question I ask myself abour 10 times each day. Honestly, I'm not convinced of the efficacy of one over the other, although there are certainly arguements going both ways. They are so close, in my way of thinking, i usually let a guy do whichever one he wants. In cases where an individual expresses negative side effects from Clomid, of course, the decision is then made. On that note, it's interesting that some men actually ENJOY the emotional lability it can bring, as it can actually improves their relationship skills. My own girlfriend tells me I'm a "better boyfriend" when I am taking it. This surprises me because, well, I thought I already was.
:lol:Quote:
Originally posted by SWALE
On that note, it's interesting that some men actually ENJOY the emotional lability it can bring, as it can actually improves their relationship skills. My own girlfriend tells me I'm a "better boyfriend" when I am taking it. This surprises me because, well, I thought I already was.
SWALE...how would you recommend to use the clomid.
First off, I see no benefit to using it exclusively as HRT. I've tried, as have several of my patients. ALL of us report increased T levels, but that was all, no benefits from it. In fact, for some reason, it destroyed my libido (still scratching my head about that one).
I like to see guys on aromatisables using 50mg QD throughout, as estrogen antagonism, then continuing on past the cycle to stimulate the HPTA (which it WOULD be doing, throughout, were there not overwhelming inhibition from androgen). Once the androgen has diminished to a point of, roughly, equal to 200mg of test a week (it seems), then the Clomid can take over and exert its effects. Personally, I am wondering about a benefit from using it even in abscence of aromatisables, because of its selective agonism at certain tissues. However, I have actually had to recommend adding some testosterone, maybe just even 100mg per week, to already heavy cycles which were non-aromatising. That is becasue the HPTA was shut down by same, and there was almost no estrogen being produced. One must be careful to maintain estrogen concentrations within normal range (not too low). Therefore I am wondering if the selective agonistic abilities of the SERM's might be of value. Just thinking out loud.
Ummmm Swale if u can read it says "Check out Big Cats profile" so ur NOT disagreeing with me ur disagreeing with Big Cat and what he thinks works best. I however said "I" had good results using Nolvadex throughout my cycle along with Clomid post cyle. Not sure if ur also saying u have problems with that too?
OG
No, just tuning up a few things you wrote. I think the Clomid/Nolvadex debate is going to go on for awhile--and to the benefit of all.