clomid is killing me

**fifty-five** · 12-23-2002, 10:40 AM

Man, I get hot flashes...but that isn't real bad..

my vision got blurry at times, but not to bad. My main problem is I am breaking out in acne like a sum bitch. I am itching like hell too.

I never broke out bad while on my cycle...but since clomid...life is not that great.

ouch

55

**SuperMac_G4** · 12-23-2002, 11:12 AM

IM ABOUT TO START MY 1ST CLOMID TREATMENT SO I HAVE TO ASK,
HOW LONG HAVE U BEEN TAKING IT?
HOW MUCH ARE U TAKING?
AND IS THE CLOMID TABS OR LIQUID?

THANX

**physique** · 12-23-2002, 11:23 AM

yep the same thing happens to me when i take clomid. alot of acne.

**SuperMac_G4** · 12-23-2002, 11:29 AM

NICE physique THATS JUST WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR LOL

**H BOMB** · 12-23-2002, 11:42 AM

hey supermac everyone reacts diff to clomid. i did not get one pimple while on clomid nor blurry vision. so see there is hope for ya. good luck bro

**plucks** · 12-23-2002, 12:36 PM

I got no acne but had crazy emotional twists. Slap some tits on me and i would have been a woman it was so bad. But no other sides besides that, but that was bad enough.

**JuiceAddict** · 12-23-2002, 12:44 PM

Clomid sucks, no doubt. But, just remember, it's a means to an end.

You have to use it. I know guys who have taken it for 10-12 days, and couldnt stand the emotional mood swings it gave them, so they quit. They also lost most of their gains. Just keep that in mind..

And, it gives me MAD acne on my back and shoulders, delt area. Nothing on my face, thank god.

**YZFR6** · 12-23-2002, 12:52 PM

Ahhh just what I wanted to read about this morning since I start clomid for the first time on Thursday... hoping for the best.

**DiMensionX** · 12-23-2002, 01:20 PM

I'll never use it again because of the sides I had. I just switched to Nolva and HCG instead...

DMX

**michi** · 12-23-2002, 01:42 PM

take nolvadex instead is better.

**big N** · 12-23-2002, 03:38 PM

i tak eit i get sometimes the emotional rollercoaster nothin too crazy ,lots a ofb acne ,back and shoulder .

**projectsherv** · 12-23-2002, 04:08 PM

only thing i experienced was acne on shoulders and upper back, definatly worth keeping my gains.

**rangerdudeleads** · 12-23-2002, 04:22 PM

Whats up Big 55, when are we gonna start taking BP? hey have you started to blow huge loads yet? That stuff makes me shoot off large volumes of shnizo my nizo. Give me a call

**Jdawg50** · 12-23-2002, 05:19 PM

I'm into a week of clomid, a little blury vision, and I get cranky kinda easy, aside from that no probs. I love the big ass loads though!

**JuiceAddict** · 12-23-2002, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by michi
take nolvadex instead is better.

Research my friend. It's not better. Not even close.

**DiMensionX** · 12-23-2002, 06:36 PM

I beg to differ JuiceAddict... From my research, other than every single person repeating what they "heard", I have found several articles stating that Nolva is better at bringing the Axis back online. It is a better Anti-E, less side effects, more potent per mg, and has benifits with LH and colesteral(sp?) as well.

Thats just my opinion though, JuiceAddicts been around longer than I. I can say this, Clomid was not helping me, and I had terrible sides from it. Since starting HCG and Nolva my mental clarity is SOOOO much better than it was. It's almost as if I can feel my test starting to run through my vains again. I'll have blood work in 3 weeks and that will be the end all be all for me at least...

Hey, whatever works for ya! Everyone is different.

DMX

**CatGrabber** · 12-23-2002, 07:23 PM

I have to agree. Clomid has made me break out like mad and mostly, put me on the most severe emotional rollercoster ever. I have kept 90% of my gains thus far because of it but man o man it puts you in a shitty mood.

**SuperMac_G4** · 12-23-2002, 08:40 PM

when u guys talk about blury vision, is it a constant thing or somthing that comes and goes or what?
anyone had any sides that didnt stop with the end or the treatment??

**Jdawg50** · 12-23-2002, 09:33 PM

Blurry vision: For me it seems like I have a bogger in my eye every now and again. Thats about it though. hope that helps

**SuperMac_G4** · 12-23-2002, 09:42 PM

the advice here always helps, thanx man!

**DiMensionX** · 12-23-2002, 10:22 PM

I was getting true "trails". As in move your hand slowly in front of your eyes and see a trail follow behind it. At night it was kinda dangerous to be out, like a nervous twitch as well.

It wasn't constant vision problems but it happend several hours a day for a week until I stopped the shit.

DMX

**rangerdudeleads** · 12-23-2002, 10:37 PM

From research I have done and experience clomids is a must for post cycle and nolvedex's and clomids both do totally different things. There are plenty threads of this subject and Ill try to find some and post the link here but I have tried both and clomids has always helped me keep most of my gains where as nolvedex didnt do nothing but keep the estrogen down other than that I would lose alot when I used nolv's and only reason i even did that was I couldnt get clomids at that time. Just my 2 cents.

**DiMensionX** · 12-24-2002, 03:06 AM

Well here is some stuff for everyones reading pleasure:-). Also, I'm doing HCG /Nolva now to get my test back online. I will get blood work done in 3-4 weeks and post my definitive answer for me when I do.

DMX

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i7postcycle.html

http://www.elitefitness.com/members/...vs_clomid.html

http://www.massmonsterz.com/forum/sh...ght=post+cycle

http://www.massmonsterz.com/forum/sh...=&threadid=176

http://www.elitefitness.com/members/...clomidhcg.html

Nice thread here on that topic...
http://www.fitnessgeared.com/showthr...lva+post+cycle
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9