Come on boys Lets figure some shit out(Spured off of Warrior's Post)

[mmaximus25]

MIke XXL, you touched on a thoery that I have probably fowled up for others. The anbolic growth of rebuilding muscle fibers must have another or secondary path for hypertrophy. In experimenting with my body I have taken (my modest array) each androgen and made a hack data script. but I can say that with each different molecule from these hormones some have simmilar effects and others are on the opposite side of that androgen spectrum. So When I made a comment as to keeping my receptors jumping It has more to do with the testoserone dirivitive as a molecule having a different effect on that used receptor; than the androgen before and as new receptors become avalible they too become acustom to the dose and molecule so changing the androgen crates more receptor site production not only the dose.
MMAX

[KIMBLE]

que? me no speak englis.


no on the real tip, i understand half of your sciencetisit talk. break it down so we all can understand it.

[D_BEAR]

thats pretty broke down any smaller or simplier it would say
short small doses of differnt steroids tends to make you bigger

[mmaximus25]

To all the guinea pig and pin cushions like myself out there... There are new improved theories to cycling and staggering. And the only way were gonna find out the data on dosing, stacking with staggers, and longer ran cycles is if we experiment. Remember it was only 25 years ago people thought muscle turned into fat.
So I'll break this some of this down for ya, kinda

About ten years ago a cycle was ran in a taper. Theory was to rise to a peak and come down so your body can adjust with out shock…
Ok ok... But some like my self don’t think a short cycle is enough time to get the body using the androgens properly and long low doses could be more beneficial.
Well anyway… staggering became more and more preference with in two or three cycles per year switching androgens for different ones through out the cycle, not stacking but dropping and changing.
Bulking and cutting have now become long ran cycles together with out getting off. Stacks have become normal but combining 2 or 3 androgens for a # of weeks then switch androgens for different types and so on... High androgens ran for the bulking part and lower androgens high anabolic for the cutting, but were talking in short and long bursts all year long.
Don’t get me wrong there are risks but the coin is this…There is healthy way to run all year long. And the results may be incomparable to short cycles and getting off.
With you as the front line… The only real data on receptor mapping and saturation is coming from us all of us.
Using physiology as a starting point and biochemistry as a coupler I think there are more efficient doses and androgens to go along with those doses; that can yield amazing results.
I still have some reservation being at one time a more is better mentality, but truthfully had a crash in my regimen that brought me to using lower doses. I achieved the same results with less mgs.
This is not for beginners though, as a beginner I think you should go slow and learn your body before guinea pigging. Making mistakes is not always bad…but you should be knowledgeable of your body.
Regular blood tests and a yearly heart examine, EKG report should be the norm…

I meant this to be a discussion for long time users, mega dozer’s, and guinea pigs... But open for any discussion…
I've only been using for 5 yrs recorded and I dont count the first because it was not pretty...

[setsthesun]

this is exactly what i have been doing. And i have written an extremely similar post to yours on a romanian forum (we thought out the cycles exactly the same)

i don't know exactly what to say but if you ask me specific things i will surely answer.

[mmaximus25]

My questions are a little general but for me personally I have receptor mapped my self with (the best records are from deca , prop, and winny)... I feel that most everyone can take a steroid at a high enough milligram and experience a similar anabolic growth... but there are few that know just at what minimum your dose can be and you achieve the same results. Ex I've taken 1000mg of deca and then to 2000mg per week and have concluded for me that I experience the same gains and no sides at 400mgs, but the gains I made at 2000mg I needed to take a minimum of 600-800mgs to accomplish...
From the fist post I made- I have now noticed a dramatic increase in muscular hypertrophy when I take the minimum mg yet continue to change the androgens.
My next test is to do the above but now record my medical status... heart, blood anomalies, test levels... for a year.

Have you found good or negative results from year long intake?
Any negative results that were apparent besides grocery money?
Again this will be 2-1/2 of yearly supplementation for me the results dont compare to the 3yr period when I cycled in weeks...


Just for the formal definition: Ref. Anabolic reference guide BIll P.
Receptor Mapping--- (This is a technique which is used in an attempt to determine how certain steroids affect a given individual.
Each person reacts differently to dosages of different steroids.
Mapping starts with recording a number of aspects of a cycle. First of all the steroids taken must be carefully documented everyday. Side’s appetite, sex drive, energy levels...
During the cycle the dosages should be steadily increased. If sides are occurring at the same time strength and weight gains are being made, the dosage should be lowered to see if gains out weigh the adverse reactions...
***Some use common sense as a form of receptor mapping. For ex. If an athlete was taking 200mg of deca a week and experiencing good strength and weight gains, while noticing no sides, this dose would be suspected to be optimal. Experimenting with going up to 400mg per week may bring on sides but not more gains...In this case the lower dose is optimal.)

[Warrior]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
My questions are a little general but for me personally I have receptor mapped my self with (the best records are from deca, prop, and winny)...

Tell ya what MMAX - I did Deca at 5 weeks 800/400/400/400/400 and then Eq at 10 weeks - 100mg EOD. I had great results and pumps from the Deca and the Eq never really produced much... one was short with greater dose, the other was more layed out... and... I don't think mg per mg Equipoise was made for human receptors as Deca was... obviously it's human grade vs vetinary... but I can see where you are getting at with receptor mapping. Different strokes for different folks, some like Clomid - others do better with Nolvadex or HCG . Some like Boldenone - some do better with Norandrolone...

[mmaximus25]

Thx good crit... Warrior... I'm gonna put my personal dose comparisons up soon... the only thing I really want to do is run this next year and keep every med exam for each switch I do.
- I do better on deca too...
I can take a relativly lower dose compared to EQ. I need to go back and do an EQ experiment and compare that to a deca dose I've done. I will admit my strength is high with EQ but how about that price tag, I can get that TT boldenone 200mg 10ml for 140 but I can grab a brovel Deca 200mg 10ml for 80 all day...

[setsthesun]

well, i havent done a one year cycle. My last cycle was 6 months, i had to stop because of lack of money.
I can;'t say i have mapped out my receptors...but i did try out 9 substances and kept the 3 that worked best for me. THese are: enthantate, naps and deca .

No, no side effects. Really a lot less sides than when i went hard for 2 months then off.

My cycle is like this....i think more advances than your because it also contains a little "shock therapy", which some may not like, but i do.

Instead of counting in weeks, i count in 8 days...it's a lot easier. I inject every 4th day, and i calculare my dosage on a /8weeks base.

I change substances like this:


androgenic A for 16 days, anabolic A for 16 days, androgenic B for 16 days, anabolic B for 16 days, androgenic A for 16 days and so on


and now the shocks...it goes like this

first 8 days of androA are base dosages, then next 8 days are double dosages (or at least 50% more). first of days of anabA are base dosage and next 8 days are double dosages and so on. I think it works best when the subtances have 10 days+ esters

[mmaximus25]

setsthesun
I appreciate the hit... and happy to see some mind melding
Your switches are more exact and controlled... leaving me thinking about my next move...

quick explanation:
I'm receptor mapping is only to maximize my gains due to money issues for my gear, I can’t afford as much any more... also I'm not completely health unconscious. I am cooking my personal year script that will be healthy in regards to my Estrogen & Androgen ratio, Gonadal function and Prostate health...
????Now the question... This will help me, if you have good data on your self???:
On your andro A & B spreads have you mega dosed the full term????
And, or did you intake moderate or mega doses on the anabolic spreads... I know you said you shock but are we talking going from 200 to 400 mg's, 400 to 800mgs or 1000 to 2000mgs????

***Put some thought into this fellow Pigs and Cushions and reply***
I am leaning on the low to moderate doses right now; as far as bang for your buck. The same stagger or switches as (setsthesun) I do... but in conjunction to the volume per vial... meaning the androgenic and anabolic spreads are directly dependant on the ml- (I use the bottle till it’s gone). Due to my harnessing the short and long esters... So my andro B spread wont last as long as andro A did and will be back on the long androgenic ester quicker... (maybe saving money instead of shocking but that needs some research)

I break up the higher androgenic AS into short and long esters. my anabolic spreads have become (using setsthesun: A & B scenario) Anabolic A long ester and B short...
Finally, what I'm going to switch; is androgenic A long ester - then to anabolic A short ester- Androgenic B short ester- Anabolic B long ester.
The test subjects will be basic and domestic (domestic vs. exotic, meaning domestic is easy to get & exotic is costly and harder to get)
Subjects under personnel study: (Enanthate , Propionate , deca , winny, d-bol, EQ, nolva, proviron , hcg )

I am going to throw in a relatively new to me synthetic androgen: Proviron; I am throwing it in after looking back on some logs and chatting with a new a pig: Warrior...
I will say the first way worked phenomenal for me but I am a guinea pig so...

One more add on to the Novel: I am looking into what I call and The secondary path of muscle fiber hypertrophy... (SPMH)
After talking with Warrior, He sparked A flag with me on the SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin)
There's a T-mag article that may be putting some of us into the, I need to go back to class category and read every fucking thing over again...

I'll post the summery on the main page... look for it... stay in touch setsthesun & warrior. Were close... very close to having a ratio of higher benefits with AS in regards to growth and health Vs side effects and health anomalies...
THX guys...

[Warrior]

Can you have different reactions to different esters? But same compound... I understand that 100mg's of Tesosterone Undecanoate would only have about 70mg of total free Test - where Testosterone Acetate would have closer to 95mg because of the ester weight. But can the esters complicate absorbtion and bioavailability in different people?

Basicaly, Test is Test - but could different ester lengths work better than others. Could some get better results with say, 100mg of Test Suspension versus 150mg of Test Enanthate ?

[mmaximus25]

Good ??? This is another reason for receptor mapping

There are major and minor factors to consider with your question...
This might be scattered and I may have to come back and revise...
I'm going off my brain I may need to come back and correct any errors...

Take into consideration that with the higher levels of free test your AR's will accommodate to accept the molecules...
Take the ester into consideration because of its purpose... the reason is to keep the test in the body for a period of time as the molecules continue to bind to receptors until aromatization...(I may have this part a little fouled up)

The true effect is in the AR's affinity to each different testosterone and test derivitive molecule structure, although; some only slightly different and some more so... each synthetic test and derivative will yield either similar or different results. Ex cyp and enanthate , less similar than cyp & prop though... d-bol & anadrol (sorry these are 17-alpha alky-lated), how about test suspension & cyp...

Ex my AR's might have more of an affinity to the structure of propionate than enanthate, although very similar; now take the ester into consideration and because of my affinity for prop, I most likely should take less than enanthate; purely because my AR's respond better to a propionate and do not want saturation too occur prematurely.
So the esters in the enanthate work well for me because I need it in my body longer to work at the most efficient level. Or dose higher on the enanthate to create AR stimulation... (Not exactly true for me... an Ex...)
The fact of short esters is the response time... this is usually a calculation of what your goals are and how long you want the hormones in your body... my power lifting bud only uses short acting test, and oral d-bol and anadrol...but this is his preference not mapped data...

Ok I need some food... I'm sending this with out reading I'm fucking hungry...
I'm not done though...just can't think straight... and need to revise.

[mmaximus25]

Back... Ok complicate things yes esters can complicate things. There is a world of data that isn't being produced because there is not a definitive medical use for AS unless you suffer from cancer, Addison’s, lupus and HIV. The absorption and gonad shut down is the only thing you can rely on in a short ester test or fast absorbing as is test suspension.
I can utilize the fast acting test easier because I can see the changes right away... The longer esters gave me a problem when mapping them... I of coarse had to wait about four times longer to see the type of changes to expect. And because of half life, the timed release due to weight of the ester, you will spend a lot of time finding the optimal dose. Like I wrote you some time ago I find it much easier when my natural test production is shut down to record data.

I rely heavily on propionate because of the zero sides greater gains at the same mg dose compared to cyp and enanthate for me... I need nolva when using enanthate or in two weeks time I will have gained 20lb easy... I also rely heavily on test derivatives because of my affinity to test not only AR's but ER's...

The reaction of your AR's to androgens is a double edged sword. The affinity for a particular androgen can mean too much and saturation occurs, so while your body is scrambling to receive more of the binding molecules the excess androgen is converted to estrogen.
Hence receptor mapping to find the optimal dose so this does not happen and you do not waste your AS. When you’re taking 1000mg of enanthate but you could have taken 500mg and achieved the same results.

We haven't covered saturation: which is basically the max absorption to mg of AS before the receptors can recoup.

[D_BEAR]

hey you wanna try this got a buddy who is a low dose fool like me
trenbolone acetate 40mgs eod and 200mgs testosterone cyp once a week
he is makin fuckin great gains
he has been on 2 1/2 months
im going to do this on a 16 week run
then switch to eq and growth hormone for 16 weeks
then back that will total a year

[D_BEAR]

oh yeah on the body fat you were saying 4 % that is to low
anything under 6% is low
i want to stay about 10% or 6% right in there somewhere

[mmaximus25]

I stay lean for any photo shoots I can snag for quick cash. I am an elite diet expert for my body. I consume on average 5000 cals a day now and have been at 9% for 4mo. I can drop to 6 in a week and 4 in two week on an extreme zig zag. I like to call it puching numbers, some say dialing it in.
No shit food or process. during the week. I'll go back to 4000 once I'm at 230 9%. I belive in seeing only size and strength gains. not fan of fat... dont get me wrong when I need to eat I eat an avg of 8 to 10 times a day but I will seriously crack some fucking heads if someone gets in between me and my food.....

Growth Hormone ??? only 6mo..... You dont need to get off this in fact I will garrentee with out a year to two years on you will not have the true wonder drug efffect. 1yr minimum to see the types of gains your gonna pay for. I mean in dollars. hopefully your getting the 128iu total for about 600. If you go down to the Mex you can find the Serono brand 128iu's for 125-300$. but they will fuck you if you can't speak the lingo...

[D_BEAR]

hey i would like to talk to you bout how you work your diet and stuff
i put up a list of what i ate for 4 to 6 months and the gains i made
one this post
http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...threadid=39922

[mmaximus25]

Oh yeah the insulin brother...I hope you know what your doing, cause HG and insulin go hand in hand you gotta shoot these every day bro and let me tell you have you ever pasted out from partying too hard and spiked and sunk you insulin levels... Be fucking careful
Once you master your vices you need to have you blood sugar checked once a month if your hardcore. I hear too much of people talking about growth and I suspect they read alot but submit some horror stories I see none. insulin can be dangerous... but very anabolic
Just be carefull All my buds take Growth but I mean fuck... they're very strict dieter's...

[setsthesun]

maximus, quick response because i don't have time right now, sorry.


i would advise you to do this if you use both short/long andro and short/long anabolic

month 1
long andro A 8 days, double long andro A 8 days, short anabol A 8 days, long anabol B 8 days
month 2
short andro B 16 days, double long anabol B 8 , long anabol B 8 days
month 3
short andro B 8 days, short andro B + long andro A 8 days (this would be doubling the dosages of short androgen by adding a long ester to keep high estrogen away), short anabol A 8 days, long anabol B 8 days

.....................

i know it looks fucked up at first, but it's a way of having a cycle that you can change anytime, using the 8 days patters, if you feel like it;'s not working. You also have 2 types of esters to use for anabol and andro, so you can play with how much time you're spending on only andro, or only anabol, and how much time you're spending with both in your bloodstream.
just an ideea, take a look at it. I know i have a lot of work to put in it.


as for the doses, i had a base of 400 on anabolic weeks and 500 on androgenic weeks. i didn't always double up, actually i almost never doubled up. I only once went to 1 g of test for 8 days, and another time to 800 deca /8 days. But that's all. Usually it would be a 50% increase. So i would "double up" to 600 and 750.

The dosages may seem low, but to all the people reading this post, i might have to add that i am 17 years old. So if you don't care to hear my ideeas because i'm 17 can't blame you, but i had to get this out of the way in case someone who knew i'm 17 would come and flame me.

[KIMBLE]

I JUST JOINED THIS SITE SO THAT WHY I ASKED TO BREAK IT DOWN. MAX.....YOU'VE BEEN ON FOR A YEAR? SO WHAT IS THE DEBATE? YOUR AR ARE DOWNGRADED. YOU CAN'T TAKE A BREAK. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

[setsthesun]

he has no problem....we're just discussing the best way to take AAS. we both think short heavy cycles are outdated.

[KIMBLE]

4 on 2 off and shit like that

[D_BEAR]

yeah i always do a little insulin in my cycle atleast 3 days a week

[mmaximus25]

Setsthesun, although your script is timely this is not the purpose of my dosing...
The reason for a long duration of one particular androgen whether anabolic or androgenic , is mapping the affinity of the hormone to the receptors.
I don’t want to switch androgens so quickly as in a typical stagger cycle.
This is an experiment... I'm doing the same androgens I did last year but am recording the data with medical exams as I move from androgen to androgen... the same AS I took two years ago but in mega doses I am now taking in low optimum doses and achieving the same if not better results.
To KIMBLE:

The misconception with a year long stagger is the down time. Most users don’t have their T levels tested and think that 2mo will have them back to normal...Wrong... virtually they aren't getting off either and don’t even realize...
I on the other hand plan for my so called down time by using HCG in the transition of an anabolic to an androgenic and use nolvadex during the androgenic periods as the anti-estrogen.
This theory is relatively old... most of your BB pros all do 2 and 4 type staggers. I'm merely mocking their patterns with lower receptor mapped doses for me personally. My doses are not for anyone else but me hence "receptor mapping" stated above...
Another statement I want to make is... the human body is the greatest machine ever made. Some people work on cars and make them faster... I work on my body... manipulating through biochemistry...
How do you think the standard cycles came about...? Someone....a guinea pig conducted personal experiments on them selves and published the data. Ever hear of "Dan Duchaine"
Or at grand scale a foreign study done....
I predict just the way novice users cycle today at some point will be reading information on how to increase their gains in a fast healthier way than now... The secondary path of Muscle fiber Hypertrophy is my current quest...

AS is not just for us it’s for everybody there are a number of health benefits that the medical world is snuffing out. Just one example: The number of men with high (BPH) due to low natural test levels are on the rise as new prostate cancer victims. Older males are prescribed weekly doses of testosterone to combat BPH (benign prostatic hypertrophy)

I am going to clean up this thread under a new title using only the posts that offer good crit and questions in regards to the first post... I want the guinea pigs to come out and hit... I'm not looking for "book people" that’s what me and my friends call the guys that haven't yet experimented with their bodies... they read the definition of the hormone and rattle off like they know how it reacts in everyone... all they really know is how to read and give general data to others... Come on... you know some one like that...I know I use to be that guy at one time...

[mmaximus25]

Warrior, I still need to post the SHGB data and theory for you to review and check out...

[Warrior]

Check your PM too.

[mmaximus25]

To answer your question honestly, If you have the advantage of getting good stagger info you should use this in your future aspect. One misconception about a stagger which I probably need to post this; the cutting and bulking have less to do with the AS than diet. I can help you plan your stagger but we need more personal data on you…
I think you should run your cycle that you have but continue to plan for your stagger. Being the guru for your own body is most valuable… You will save time in poor cycling and never have any loss in mass.
Your end goal is????
(This will help you…cause me personally I want to look good, good enough to stand next to a Tito Raymond or Aaron Maddron and say you fit in…) I don’t want to compete and I don’t want to be so massive I can’t sprint…
Your stagger would look a lot like the cycle you have now but you change your diet to androgen to achieve maximum results. If your cutting you keep your diet consistent with low fat, no saturated, no refined sugar, simple suger ok, high pro-tein, moderate carbohydrates if complex, high carbohydrates if Simple.

I do caution that if you don’t know your minimum dose of mg per androgen you will have to use this as a mapping tool. Basiclly on the fly. Remember the post I made with the def. Of receptor mapping; well you will need to slowly increase the dose until you see the risk to benefit. The dose compared to results. If your going to go this route I recommend a one- two test… the androgenic and the anabolic will be tested in pattern… try the androgenic at a lower than normal does the first time, then when going to your anabolic do the same, instead of switching to a different androgenic for the next step use the first one before but at a higher dose and record, do the same with the following anabolic.

Standard learning pattern that I recommend
You’ve done the first two already

1. I believe people should master the stacks first, because there is enough data out there that you can compare to… If your gains don’t match the data you begin to look for the problem. Most of the time its diet.
2. After you have a mediocre feel for the androgens you should begin to use them individually to see the reality in results to definition of androgen ..(did you retain some water, was your blood pressure high)
3. Then begin a stagger with in a cycle and keep track of your doses and diet…
4. Then begin a formal stagger of androgens. Switch in a pattern per type and dose. Couple your androgens with the use of nolvadex , Proviron , and HCG …

Your diet will be key, you must understand and I know you do… it’s diet, diet, diet brother… It will make or break you… But one advantage you do have is you can slip up in your diet more in a stagger due to length than a stack cycle…. (you fuck up with fat intake on anadrol or even enanthate and hello balloon boy…
You already have mastered how to get big you can fine tune that even more with the mapping but for right now I am going to suggest some thing you may be in disagreement with. Cut down and build back up the right way…
Use me as an Ex. I was at 245-250 5’11 at about 25%BF. I just wanted to see if I could get that big because I have no trouble packing on weight… I decided to diet down until I could hit a BF of 4%… My goals started to change as I dropped body fat, I realized that I wanted to look good year around not just half of the year… So, I only dropped the enanthate and began my diet down. I’m really good at getting shredded but I will admit it take some discipline and practice…

I think you should diet down until you get to a 9%-6% body fat… don’t stop dieting until you get there… It may leave you at a 220 weight and you may sacrifice some muscle but hold on because after the diet down you will start your staggering. The hardest think to gage is lean muscle mass when you’ve got a 15-20% BF. Unless you can average you water weight and take a BF measurement every month your not going to see the results with your eyes like I will…

You’re in the same path I traveled.. I think??? doing cycles and getting size and mass from them…Ok well your done with that part now (I don’t mean size and mass) I mean getting the feel of the androgenic with coupled anabolics…
I think this is also “Key” in the over all growth of a user. It’s kind of like this: You can look at pro bber’s history also. Heavy cycling to get the mass in years. Leaning the mass down to lean muscle, then maintaining that muscle maturity… with continued staggering...

Now same concept just repeats each year. To keep packing on the muscle…
You can’t do this in a short periods of time when you’re talking about adding 20-30lb of lean mass. It will take a couple years…I know I’m running on about this but I want you to know where I’m coming from…. Most common is the bulk for half the year and then cut down the second half
***but that doesn’t have as much to do with the juice as the diet***

I can have a cutting cycle and still use a test in there and because my nutrition is equated in; I gain muscle and still lose fat.

There are a couple of things you can do with out bells and whistle receptor mapping. The common sense way is favored for some what intelligent people. The tedious record is more for hard personal data or individuals that have a poor scheduling ability.

Looking at your cycles you’ve done before. List your androgens out… You should be able to look at that list and at least one if not two or three should stand out as you’re seeming favorite. Or seeing the ones you achieved dramatic results from; which may have been coupled with another androgen but this is “key”.
Keep the favored list there and the others in a second bracket for now… those will be used later…
Look at the favored list and divide them into androgenic and anabolic…
This is the beginning of mapping with out long study which I implore you still due as a benefit to yourself…(it’s more interesting than anything trying single androgens and just seeing how you react)
The diet is the true kicker… I have finally dialed my diet down by trial and error. I guess you can say it’s how bad you want it. Opening up a magazine at 250 and knowing that I’m stronger that these guys but I don’t look as good. I knew that I could look as good though, its just figuring out the diet.
I like your cutting cycle for a number of reasons. I don’t think you should full on stagger just yet. Pretty similar in weight I think you can benefit from my dieting errors..
I’m currently 5’11” 225 lb @ 10% BF I gain weight like water, I have no problem putting it on I have a problem shredding. I’m self conscience about my appearance and put a lot of time into staying lean.. ok enough about me…

One reason I like the cutting that you want to do is it will create your solid base to build from. If you're anything like me we can jump to 250 no problem but calling it muscle will be the lie..
Keep this in your head… do more than just this one cutting cycle… keep cutting until you dial your diet in… You may not have a competition coming up but that doesn’t mean you can’t act like you do. This is my advice and you can do what ever you want with it.
I’ll give you my scenario on how to get to 4% BF from where you are and you can take that and do what ever you want also.

Every time I look at a cycle I think of the diet to go with it. Your cycle and how I would approach it is get your cardio in every day in the morning (30min a day) approach the high anabolic with large amounts of pro-tein and lower complex carbs, your body will love you for it.. (No red meat during the week) (Saturated fat are your enemy… and how bigger guys like us lose the battle in getting ripped) on the prop a high androgenic keep complex carbs low eat simple carbs like green leafy shit. No fruit unless in the morning. Protein same level… high..
By zig zagging your calories and grams per nutrient you will force your body into a constant metabolic state…