Thread: HGH - best way to take?
12-24-2002, 05:43 PM #1New Member
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HGH - best way to take?
I was planning on taking 6IU a day, 2days on 1 day off.
Question is how to break it up. Is 3IU am/pm best or 6IU in 1 shot in the morning?
Also, which is better subQ or Intramuscular?
I am mostly taking it to see if it will heal up my tendonitis in my elbows and knee. As a powerlifter I could care less about fat loss.
12-24-2002, 10:52 PM #2Member
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I think the best way to take it is to split the dose. I am taking 9iu/day, 5 iu right at bedtime, 2 iu morning, and another 2 iu mid afternoon. If I were doing 6 iu/day, I'd do 3 iu at bed, then 1.5 iu morning and mid-afternoon.
These studies were posted by Nandi on CEM.
ITwice Daily GH Injections Give Higher IGF-1 Levels
Here is an interesting abstract. They took the same amount of GH and compared the effects of one injection vs dividing the amount into two injections. The twice daily regimen gave a 20% higher serum IGF-1 level. Notice that they gave 2/3 at night and 1/3 in the morning to more closely approximate the natural circadian GH pattern.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1994 Sep;41(3):337-43 Related Articles, Links
Metabolic effects of growth hormone administered subcutaneously once or twice daily to growth hormone deficient adults.
Laursen T, Jorgensen JO, Christiansen JS.
Medical Department M (Diabetes and Endocrinology), Aarhus Kommunehospital, Denmark.
OBJECTIVE: The aim of this study was to compare the metabolic effects of GH administered subcutaneously either once or twice daily. The actions of GH might depend upon a pulsatile pattern of serum GH. Pulsatile and continuous intravenous delivery of GH, however, induce similar short-term metabolic effects in GH deficient patients. An improved growth response is obtained in GH deficient children when a fixed weekly GH dose is administered by daily subcutaneous injections instead of twice or thrice-weekly intramuscular injections. A more pulsatile pattern and serum GH levels above zero might be achieved by further increasing the injection frequency. Increased daytime GH levels might, however, adversely affect the circadian patterns of metabolic indices, which have been demonstrated to be more successfully reproduced by evening compared with morning GH administration. DESIGN AND MEASUREMENTS: In a cross-over study, 8 GH deficient patients (age 16-43 years) were treated with 3 IU/m2/24 h of human GH. The dose was injected in the evening for 4 weeks and for another 4 weeks two-thirds was injected in the evening and one-third in the morning. At the end of each period the patients were admitted to the hospital for 37 hours. Steady-state profiles of GH, IGF-I, IGF binding proteins 1 and 3, insulin , glucose, lipid intermediates and metabolites were obtained following administration of 3 IU/m2 of GH (at 1900 h (one injection) and at 1900 and 0800 h (two injections)). RESULTS: Similar mean integrated levels of serum GH (mU/l) were obtained (7.46 +/- 0.84 (one injection) vs 6.46 +/- 0.62 (two injections) (P = 0.15)). Mean levels +/- SEM of serum IGF-I (micrograms/l) were significantly increased (P < 0.01) following two daily GH injections (330.3 +/- 48.1 (one injection) vs 399.1 +/- 53.0 (two injections)). Serum IGFBP-3 levels were not significantly different on the two occasions, while levels of the GH independent IGFBP-1 (micrograms/l) were slightly but significantly lower following twice-daily GH injections (1.61 +/- 0.42 vs 1.13 +/- 0.56, respectively (P < 0.04)). The pattern of IGFBP-1 was opposite to that of insulin. Similar levels of insulin and glucose were obtained with both GH regimens, while levels of non-esterified fatty acids were significantly higher following once-daily GH injection (P < 0.001). CONCLUSIONS: Twice-daily GH injections, apart from producing a more physiological serum GH profile, were superior to one injection in increasing serum IGF-I and decreasing IGFBP-1 levels. Both of these changes tend to amplify the effects of the administered GH. Twice-daily injections, however, resulted in lower night-time levels of lipid intermediates.
I just posted a bunch of stuff a while back over at ****** about IV GH. I'll see if I can go over there and get it. As for evening GH, there are quite a few studies showing it improves growth and nitrogen retention during replacement therapy. It is probably not the optimal way to administer if you are trying to preserve some semblance of a normal pattern on a low dose regimen, but for large doses where you don't care about your own GH, evening is optimal. Here is an abstract from a review article:
Horm Res 1990;33 Suppl 4:77-82 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Pharmacological aspects of growth hormone replacement therapy: route, frequency and timing of administration.
Jorgensen JO, Moller J, Moller N, Lauritzen T, Christiansen JS.
Second University Clinic of Internal Medicine, Aarhus Kommunehospital, Denmark.
Two or three weekly, daytime intramuscular injections of GH has been the traditional treatment of GH deficiency since the first studies. A recent reevaluation of the feasibility of subcutaneous GH injections revealed no side-effects, but a very strong preference by the patients for the subcutaneous route, and also an increase in growth rate in studies where the patients received daily injections given in the evening. That could indicate that the route, frequency and timing of GH administration may be of clinical importance. Subcutaneous injections result in a slower absorption, a smaller peak value, and a prolonged serum disappearance phase compared to intramuscular injections. This extends the periods of elevated serum GH levels in the patient, which might be advantageous. On the other hand, a reduced bioavailability of GH by the subcutaneous route has also been reported. The frequency of subcutaneous injections correlates positively with growth rate in animal studies. This is commonly ascribed to a closer resemblance to the endogenous pulsatile pattern. However, frequent subcutaneous injections do not induce a pulsatile pattern, but a pattern which is intermediary between continuous and true pulsatile administration. In a short-term patient study, we observed that pulsatile and continuous intravenous administration of GH generated identical increases in serum insulin-like growth factor I, which suggests that both pulsatory and constant, small elevations in serum GH are important for its actions. Concerning the time of administration, evening GH injections yield a more physiological pattern, and it has been shown that evening GH administration induces increased nitrogen retention and is more successful in normalizing circadian patterns of pertinent hormones and metabolites
This study might help. The previous study showed that 2 injections is better that 1, and this one shows 8 is better than 2 and just as good as a continuous infusion. I would ask myself how many times a day am I willing to inject? If 8 then so be it; you could replicate the conditions of this study. They just gave IV boluses (boli?) so shoot it all in at once. They used 2 IU per day divided into equal doses. I think I have only done 3 GH cycles in my life so I am not an expert on doses. I get way more for my dollar from AAS and insulin for size, and T3 + clen for cutting. But that is irrelevant to this discussion.
Here is what I would do. I like the fact that the previous study used the larger dose at night. That agrees with the other research showing evening doses are the most anabolic . Suppose you run 6 IU per day. Do 2 before bed IV, then 4 1 IU doses equally spaced during the day. This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Since this is all speculation as to efficacy, you can alter the regimen to your liking. I would just keep the big bolus for bedtime.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1990 Jun;70(6):1616-23 Related Articles, Links
Pulsatile versus continuous intravenous administration of growth hormone (GH) in GH-deficient patients: effects on circulating insulin-like growth factor-I and metabolic indices.
Jorgensen JO, Moller N, Lauritzen T, Christiansen JS.
Second University Clinic of Internal Medicine, Aarhus Kommunehospital, Denmark.
The episodic and pulsatile nature of GH secretion in normal man is well established. Studies in hypophysectomized rats have indicated that pulsatile administration of GH is superior to continuous infusion in promoting growth, but similar studies have not yet been conducted in human subjects. We compared three different iv GH administration schedules in six GH-deficient patients. They were hospitalized three times for 44 h on three occasions, separated by at least 4 weeks without GH treatment. On each occasion they received 2 IU GH, administered iv as either 1) two boluses (at 2000 and 0200 h), 2) eight boluses (at 3-h intervals starting at 2000 h), or 3) a continuous (2000-0200 h) infusion. Serum insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) after eight boluses and that after continuous infusion were almost identical, with a steep increase reaching a peak at 2000-2400 h, followed by a steady decline. The total areas under the curve, expressed as mean levels (micrograms per L), were 147.6 +/- 11.8 (eight boluses) and 151.2 +/- 8.9 (infusion; P = NS). The change with time in IGF-I after the two-bolus regimen differed significantly from that in the other studies (P less than 0.001), displaying only a modest increase, as also reflected in a smaller area under the curve of serum IGF-I (125.3 +/- 8.7 micrograms/L; P less than 0.05). No differences in blood glucose, serum insulin, or plasma glucagon were observed when comparing the three studies. Both blood glucose and serum insulin tended to be elevated during the second night of each study. Almost identical fluctuations were recorded in lipid intermediates in the three studies, with nightly elevations being more pronounced on the first night. Alanine and lactate exhibited nearly identical patterns in the three studies and were characterized by low nocturnal levels. These data indicate that small but frequent iv boluses and continuous infusion of GH are equally effective in generating an increase in IGF-I in GH-deficient patients, whereas the same amount of GH given as two large boluses results in a significantly smaller increase in IGF-I. This could mean that a prolongation of the period during which serum GH is above zero in GH-treated subjects is just as essential as pulsatility for the growth-promoting effects of the hormone.
Last edited by Nandi12 on 08-31-2002 at 01:
12-26-2002, 12:01 AM #3
True Story on Growth Hormone by Death On The Field (post #1)
This is an article on GH i have been working on, it takes all the advice from the top vets on GH and has been thoroughly checked and also provides citings so u can look at the info and studies urself if u want. this was made to benefit all who are looking into starting GH or need basic info on it. i am not trying to take credit for it since most of the ideas in here are either common knowledge or by MOD or Ironmaster, this is only till ironmaster can get a book out with all his info on it. If anyone has anything ot add to it please do so, its only to help out hte iron brotherhood, enjoy, and merry xmas
Rating: (1 being the lowest, 5 being the highest)
Hypoglycemia- due to lowered insulin levels.
Aromeglia- (abnormal bone growth) GH does not cause it, but if you are predisposed to it, it will speed it up.
GH gut- if predisposed and taking large doses of GH
Carpel Tunnel Syndrome
Soreness in Joints
Benefits of GH:
New Muscle Cells
Smoothing and improving the skin
Leanness, it is a potent fat burner
Joint and ligament strengthening
Where to Inject, How, and How to Make:
You can site inject anywhere you can reach the subcutaneous layer. Pinch the flesh and pull back, then insert the needle in the "pocket" underneath. Doesn't absorb quick enough if you inject into the adipose tissue. Do not inject intra-muscular, though it can be done, it is not recommended. GH is a site injection, where it is shot is where it will burn the most noticeable fat. Most people do it in the stomach since that is a typical sub q shot with most of the fat being in that area. GH should be kept in a fridge; freezing will destroy the GH. On your kit it probably says to use the kit in 18-24 hours, remember these are for AIDS patients, not bodybuilders or athletes. Mixing the GH can either be done with sterile water or bacteriostic water. The kit with water will be fine for 3 days in the fridge, even with the sterile water, but you should not take this chance, rather you should use bacteriostic water and play it safe. This will keep it fine for a couple of weeks. When mixing the GH, let the water slide down the side as to not pulverize the GH wafer. Do not spray it directly against the wafer with any force. Before reconstitution and even after GH is fragile!!! Also once the water is injected into the bottle gently swirl the vial to reconstitute, do not shake or swirl violently!!!!
1 ml = 1 cc -/+
100 units per 1 cc
6 mg = 18iu
1 ml = 18iu
.50 ml = 9iu
.25 ml = 4.5iu
Some people choose to only do it in ccís but here is how you can do it in units on a slin dart
5.5 = 1iu, so 2iu = 11 on a slin dart
Differences Between Kits:
The main difference between kits is how many iuís they make when reconstituted. For example, Serostim re-constitutes to make 126iu, while a Saizen kit.... also made by Serono.... makes up 15iu. Another of their kits makes 54iu. It better be way cheaper than a Serostim kit! Humatrope is fine, but costs too much. The other main concern would be fakes; Lilly is the most often faked one. Some older GH kits do not have holograms on them and are legit, but they are usually only less than 100 dollars than new GH kits with holograms, and I would rather be assured of the hologram and legitimacy of the kit. Best buy currently is Serostim 126 iu kits. These are made for people with wasting diseases like AIDs. Many of these patients got infected because they are IV drug addicts..........they sell the Serostim on the street for drug money.
4 to 6 iu ed is sufficient. Most people take it 5 days on 2 days off at their designated dosage. There is no reason or evidence why you cannot stay on for various lengths of time; there is no need to go 5 on 2 off other than cost. Considering that our natural production is only .5 to 1.5iu a day, this is still a huge bump for the body. Research has shown that the body's natural defense systems render mega doses of GH ineffective, anyway. GH does not cause gains in mass...it allows you to put on a great deal of lean mass in combination with proper steroid and insulin use. The user before taking must know this. One or two kits are not enough, you need at least 3 to make you happy, GH takes a while to make its effects, but remember they are long lasting, what you see is what you keep. It takes 6 to 8 weeks to notice a dramatic change in body comp using GH on an ED or 5/2 split. Lighter doses for long periods of time are better than large doses for short cycles. Like any other drug, the more you take the more the benefits, but likewise also more risks. 4-6 iu is a standard dose but many people take more, the most repulsing side effects happen at or beyond 12 iu a day but like anything else it depends on your predisposition for it.
How to Stack:
GH is best taken in conjunction with insulin, anabolic steroids , and t3. Insulin is extremely effective with GH, as anyone here who has tried it will testify. This is because GH injections cause a down regulation of insulin sensitivity in the body.
GH alone causes little growth of lean mass, however, when combined with insulin and steroids (and IGF-1 if you can find it), the results can be down right remarkable...esp. in the older bodybuilder. Start light with the humulin...5iu...and work up 1 iu a day till you get use to it. 7 to 10iu in the AM and 7 to 10 iu in the late afternoon, with split doses of GH is your best bet. When splitting GH/insulin doses, I use mid-morning and late afternoon after lifting.... both flat times in our natural GH production. The insulin overcomes the insulin-resistance caused by exogenous GH supplementation. If you are scared to take insulin thought, then Gh with Test and Glucophage is good. GH is good for cutting if used alone. Glucophage allows for improved glucose and amino acid absorption by the muscle tissue and does it safely. This is what you want. The half-life of GH is only 2 hours so spread it out. Avoid bedtime injections since we produce the bulk of our own GH in the first two hours of sleep. Since exogenous GH suppresses this, you should not take it before bed. For best results, use a 17aa oral during the cycle to stimulate the release of natural insulin growth factors. I would run the test throughout. GH/insulin/test is the proven synergistic combination.
It is also wise to preload with testosterone before starting GH if you are going to do it. You should preload with the amount of time it takes for that testosterone to kick in, since most of us take longer acting esters for testosterone you should usually start taking the test 2 weeks before GH use. Likewise, you can accommodate it to fit your needs; the key is for the test to be kicking in the same time you are starting to run your GH. You can cycle you steroids however you want to depending on your goals, if you are going for a more massive look than you would run insulin for most of the cycle and use high androgens, but if you are looking for additional leanness at the end of a cycle you should stop the androgens and run a higher dose of GH or run less androgens. T3 is also another substance that should be used during GH cycling since GH lowers thyroid hormones. T3 should be used for shorter periods though, because it can permanently alter the endocrine system. The magic of GH for men is the ability to gain mass without fat or bloating when stacked properly with insulin, and steroids. GH also makes for amazing improvements in skin...smoothes wrinkles, burns stubborn spots of adipose tissue, gives that paper-thin contest look...and also gives one a real mood lift, a feeling of well being.
Major Difference Between GH and Steroids:
Steroids can increase the size of your muscle cells, but cannot I repeat CAN NOT increase the number of muscle cells in your body, which to start with is governed by your genetics. However Growth hormone CAN increase the number of muscle cells in your body, which goes beyond genetics.
Half-Life of GH:
Exogenous (injected) GH has a "half-life" of approximately 2 hours . . . a 4-hour period of activity during which there is a suppression of naturally produced GH.
GH Naturally Produced:
We release the most of our naturally produced GH during the first two hours of deep sleep...you may take a little time to adjust.... your body thinks you should be in bed when that big influx hits. It is good to take a nap, thatís when you grow anyway. It always helps to take naps after workouts and injections everyday.
GH Causing Acromeglia:
Acromeglia is a disease...you either have it or you don't. Supplementing GH will not cause it. Persons suffering from acromeglia, like Andre the Giant, lack the natural defense mechanisms of the body to regulate the production and effects of GH secretion in he pituitary. It is well established in the medical literature that exogenous GH will not cause the disease.... of course it would worsen the condition in those who had it.
GH Gut: Myth or Reality?:
Some researchers claim that any gains in weight experienced by subjects using GH alone was due to growth of internal organs and connective tissue, which could cause some problems. Most studies do not agree with this theory and consider "GH gut" to be a myth. Some people are allergic to synthetic test, this is something you have to find out for yourself. Some people also feel intestinal discomfort from time to time, if so take it down to one item at a time to see what is causing you discomfort; creatine, glutamine, protein products, orals, and dirty gear have all been known to cause this, so find the problem early.
GH and IGF-1:
Perhaps the most relevant effect of IGF-1 is the ability of IGF-1 to increase protein synthesis by increasing cellular mRNA formation (mRNA makes protein) as well as increasing uptake of amino acids. This effect on protein synthesis can lead to increased lean mass. The research indicates that this effect is dependent on GH presence as well. So IGF-1 alone does not promote such effects. Nor does GH. It appears the combination of the two most consistently lead to increased protein synthesis.
GH and IGF-1 are negative regulators of GH release so an increase in either (from a GH injection) reduces the secretion of GH. IGF-1 is very difficult to obtain in a useable condition.... it must be handled very gently and have bee kept at a rather precise temperature at all times. One can stimulate IGF production through the use of an oral steroid during cycle. Dbol , for example, causes a rather extensive release of IGF during the first pass through the liver.
The leading studies in this area: (Ney, 1999, Yarasheski, 1994.... Am J. App. Phys.)
In the Yarasheski study, no increase in lean muscle mass was noticed in the subjects using GH alone, but significant gains were found in subjects that supplemented with IGF and GH...add in the steroids and look out! Yarasheski studied weight trained athletes, supplementing one group with GH alone, and one group with GH and IGF. "So IGF-1 alone does not promote such effects. (Leanness and increased lean mass) Nor does GH. It appears the combination of the two most consistently lead to increased protein synthesis." Both seem to negatively downregulate the other over time, so as to lead to diminishing returns. Cycling would be in order for that reason. Also supplementing both is necessary because one or the other alone will suppress the natural production of the non-supplemented Latest study by Yarashevski - with GH alone...8 to 12% change in lean body composition. 6% increase in muscle mass.
12-26-2002, 12:01 PM #4AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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great post guys! - I am about to run 2 kits and was thinking to do a 3 IU ED with no breaks wiht Var, t3 and Slin (or phenformin) for a long cutting cycle (3-4 months).
Thinking to take the GH in the mid afternoon at the same time as the var and then var again at night before bed - but now I am wondering if I woudl get better results trying to split the GH up, morning and early evening - even with such a small dose (wish it were bigger but hey, it isnt cheap)?
12-28-2002, 09:32 AM #5New Member
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I think a few observations regarding the mentioned studies are in order. First, they started with an assumption that taking 2/3 at night and 1/3 in the morning is superior to equal doses. There is no proven basis for making such an assumption, and doing so alters what we may legitimately draw from their conclusions. Who's to say what the results would have been with two equal doses, as compared to just one injection? That was not tested here. Also, why did they assume this would "more closely approximate the normal circadian rythm"? A graphed serum level which has the same shape as endogenous production, but is at higher levels, is in no way accomplishing this. Besides that, BB'ers take much higher dosages than replacement therapy for those suffering from dwarfism, so suppression is a given. We must also remember that actions at the receptor and feedback mechanism alike are much different as we go from zero serum levels to the top of "normal" range, and what goes on at supraphysiological levels. It is noble to draw from legitimate studies and extrapolate their results for bodybuilding, but must always keep these limitations in mind.
I am unconvinced that pulsatile IGF-1 levels are preferable. If "pulsatile and continuous intravenous administration of GH generated identical increases in serum insulin -like growth factor I", that means they are the same, and does not "suggest that both pulsatory and constant, small elevations in serum GH are important for its actions."
I also believe GH should be taken every day, not the 4on/2off, or any other regimen for instance, that currently is in vogue. i believe it is better to spread out whatever you can afford into equal portions.
On the issue of IV HGH, you would have to be stupid to inject ANY black Market medication into your veins. Period. i hope that is not what is being mentioned here.
I recently attended an international conference hosted by A4M, the world's foremost (and as far as I know, only) association dedicated to Anti-Ageing medicine. Doctors who work with GH every day. The general consensus there was that the best time to take Gh is in the morning. It was also mentioned that SC injections produce more even levels than IM, and that abdominal SC is better than thigh SC for this. HRT employs GH and testosterone as daily medications. As such, complience issues present when trying to get men to inject TWICE each day. It's hard enough to get them to inject QD. Of course, a BB'er is highly motivated, so this is not a problem for them.
12-29-2002, 11:09 AM #6New Member
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great posts guys!! Im trying to learn all that i can on this subject as im getting ready for a cycle with GH. Thanks again!
12-31-2002, 04:03 PM #7New Member
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AWESOME AWESOME job guys!! I try to get an answers about the info you posted from alot of people....and no one could tell me. Thank you for you knowledge!
01-04-2003, 02:57 AM #8
01-04-2003, 08:42 AM #9Senior Member
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great info cause Im trying to learn as much as I can about gh cause Im really wanting to try it very soon.
01-05-2003, 03:14 PM #10Senior Member
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I agree with your post as far as equal doses... But I believe and this is purely from my vying bber pig's growth that GH works best in equal injections three times a day. They use in conjunction with training taking two doses after morning and noon training times and before bed. Each accompanied with insulin shot & glucose drink...
My main curiosity hovers around the cycle period, not evident recorded properly but viewing the growth I have seen... It is apparent that GH should be taken in long cycles... My friends do not get off... I personally do not believe doing one or two cycles will effect the metabolic/anabolic state enough to achieve any good results....and you must continually admin GH yearly to create the higher Anabolic rate in which if anyone is turning to GH must be trying to achieve... Health risks, which I donít believe have been stated is the size of your heart, the androgens alone have its effect but coupled with GH... the organ must grow...no???
I want more guinea pig data, AS is 60yrs old; GH doesn't have enough front line hard data for me yet...
What is your opinion on the cycling compared to how a Pro BB administers, because unless you view a cycle as a year we're not on the same page...? Also for the some insight I have known for some BBer's to use GH and AS Mega doses for year long cycles until they achieve the muscle maturity they are comfortable with then Its purely maintenance after that... I donít believe most know this...but probably should....
For the record: ---I like your post, data isnít scientific data until the control is stated and the results specific to you and your questions....
Last edited by mmaximus25; 01-05-2003 at 03:34 PM.
01-05-2003, 03:51 PM #11New Member
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I would have to agre that several well-spaced shots is best--for those who are willing to do it.
The size increase in the heart is eccentric--not the concentric type of heart failure. More than likely it is an adaptation to heavy exercise. I just don't know if GH at BB dosages causes, or how much it causes, cardiomegaly.
I also just don't know what long-term effects of high GH dosing are. I'd suppose there would have to be some, due to its induction of a hyper-metabolic state.
01-05-2003, 04:12 PM #12Senior Member
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I am knowledgeable but only because I use myself as a guinea pig and can read, I can say the performed front line data on AS from the past 60 some yrs has given me the specific controls in which I test on myself...
But I'm not exactly ready to dose the way my buds do with GH... I joke constantly that they are my test subjects...
I can say, Iím an AS guru for me personally and have achieved more than gracious gains with it alone.
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