01-09-2003, 10:04 PM #1
Start of Long Cycle. Here's what we got, what would you suggest?
Allright kids, here is what we have to play with. I will probably end up doing a 25 to 30 week cycle, so this will be the first 15 or so. (In case you are wondering: currently 285lbs (probably 10-12% BF), notice few sides if any even on 2+grams of gear/week, have 5+ years experience w/AAS, have been on for the most part for the past year and a half, but have been clean for the past 2 months) oh, I got blood work done a few weeks ago, but I am waiting on the results. I am expecting everything to be fine, so starting this I should be in good health.
Anyway, here are the toys:
40 ml of 100mg/ml Eq
40 ml of 250mg/ml Enan
40 ml of 100mg/ml prop
20 ml of 100mg/ml Winny
50 tabs of 50mg D-bol
146 5mg pink Thais
Thinking of stacking as follows:
750mg/week of Enan for weeks 1-13
300mg/week of Prop for weeks 1-13
400mg/week of Eq for weeks 1-10
2-50mg D-bol/day for 25 days
10 Pink Thais/day for next 7 days
5 Pink Thais/day for next 7 days
100mg Winny/eod beggining week 8, ending week 13
Then I would drop my test to 500mg/week for about 4 weeks using either Enan again, or cyp. Then I would do another "cycle" for about 13 weeks using Sus(1000mg/week), and A50 (2-3/day) similar to the one above. Again, dropping the oral after 5 weeks, and starting Winny at week 8. I would probably also use Deca (800mg/week) the second time around for at least the first 8 weeks, and switch to Primobolan (500 mg/week) (price and availability permitting) for the last 5. All of this would be followed up three weeks later with 15000 iu of hcg , and I would begin Arimidex the last 4 weeks of the cycle and continue it for one week after the last of the HCG. I might also use some Arimidex during the oral times to keep water retention low, but I might not just so I get all of the gains I can.
I'd like to stay in good shape throughout the whole time, so my diet will be spot-on, and the only thing here that really makes me hold water is the d-bol. I have been reading Jason's Insulin .text and it has all kinds of info on the subject. If I can get a hold of some growth (cost is the issue), I might consider adding insulin to some parts of this 6 month cycle. If anyone has suggestions on where, I would greatly appreciate it. Actually, I would like suggestions on the whole thing. I want to reset my body to hold 300+ lbs on a regular basis. I think this past year I was able to move it from 270 lbs to 285lbs, so I think 300+lbs is doable. Don't worry, I will be doing more research on insulin before I try it. My main concern is staying lean while taking it (obviously, not killing myself is a concern as well, but that's a given). I think that I have a decent plan in line for that, I will post it at some point for review. Anyway, thanks to everyone who helps on this. Again, any and all suggestions are welcome. later.
01-09-2003, 10:26 PM #2
I think it is very well planned and thought out. My suggestions are the following:
1. Shoot 500iu of HCG every saturday and sunday of the cycle, this will prevent atrophy from ever occuring allowing you to recover quicker and easier and retain your gains better.
2. Get some tyler's liver detox and throw that in there to keep your liver healthy as well as some r-ALA to also aid in liver health.
The rest of the cycle looks well thought out, definitely not for a beginner but I know you have the experience necessary to handle this so I am looking forward to seeing your results. Good luck.
01-10-2003, 09:31 AM #3
NJ, thanks for the response. I have never used hcg during my "cycles", only at the end. I came off two months ago and have kept all of my size and weight by just using the hcg at the end. Another thing is, my nuts don't atrophy much anyway. The only time they ever really have was about 4 years ago when i did my first cycle of Sus @ 500mg/week for 10 weeks. I didn't take hcg properly at the end of that, and I lost all of my gains as a result. Since then, I have been able to keep most of my gains simply by shooting 5000iu every six days starting at the point that most of the aas are out of my system. I worry about taking hcg during my cycle b/c I fear it may not be as effective when I really need it at the end. Any comments on those concerns are welcome.
What is Tyler's Liver Detox? Also, what is r-ALA? I used to take milk thistle with my orals but I remember reading in MD about how milk thistle somehow keeps you from getting the most out of your aas. I wish I could remember the issue I read it in b/c I have wanted to quote from it about 10 times in the past month, but unfortunately I can't find it. All I remember it saying is that it somehow blocks the effectiveness of aas. Again, I really wish I could remember what issue I got that from so I could clarify it more, and it wouldn't sound like I was pulling it out of my ass.
Anyway, thanks for the response. Any other suggestions guys?
01-10-2003, 01:13 PM #4
Tyler's liver detox is just a liver detoxifier, r-ALA is a supplement which allows you to utilize carbs more efficiently and it also aids in healing the liver. I haven't heard anything about milk thistle preventing you from maximizing your orals but I'd definitely like to see it now that you mention it. Do you remember the month/yr of that issue of MD as I have a large stack of MD mags here and I probably have that issue. If shooting 5000iu E6D works for you, then go with it. I am surprised HCG is that effective for you, no clomid is used in there at all? If that regimen of post-cycle therapy works for you, even though its unorthodox, I'd say stick with it. Don't break what still works unnecessarily.
01-10-2003, 02:14 PM #5
Well, I just got done typing a long response only to somehow delete all of it. Sucks, huh? Anyway, here is the short of the long.
NJ, where can I get Tyler's Liver Detox? At a Supp Store? Does ALA stand for Alpha Lipoinc Acid?
I think the issue of MD was sometime last Spring or Summer. Sorry I can't be more specific. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd drag out my stack of MDs and look for it, but I haven't gotten that inspired yet.
As far as my hcg regimen goes, I got it from an article written by William Llewellyn. He described using something similar. And no, I have never used Clomid. HCG and Arimidex works for me, so like you said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'll try and copy and paste the text of that article after I ask one more question.
And that question is: What do you guys think of spreading my 3cc of Enanthate /week out over the week. Ie, instead of taking it all at one time, spread it out Mon, Wed, Fri? I usually spread it out that way, but will I get higher concentrations of test in my system if I do it all at once? Or, does it not matter so much b/c the ester in Enan makes it active for longer? Just looking for some thoughts on the subject. Thanks.
Well, looks like it worked. Here is the article from William Llewellyn. Enjoy.
Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
By William Llewellyn
O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol . You’ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can’t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
Post-Cycle LH Levels
Post Cycle Testosterone Levels
Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.
The Role of Anti-estrogens
It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.
So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.
Finalizing the Program
An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.
Sample Post-cycle Plan:
Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily
I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.
1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84
2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13
3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079
Mind and Muscle Magazine is a division of Par Deus, Inc.
©2000 — 2001. Par Deus, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
01-10-2003, 02:42 PM #6
Shoot it 3x a wk, you'll get more consistent blood levels. Yes, ALA does stand for Alpha Lipoic Acid. r-ALA is the more potent form, you take less and get more results. You can get r-ALA and Tyler's liver detox both at www.anabolicfitness.net just follow the 'AF Store' link.
01-11-2003, 02:06 PM #7
Well, got my bloodwork back. The only thing elevated out of the Reference Range for my liver values was the AST and the ALT. My AST was 57 and the Reference Range is 2 to 50. My ALT was 75, with a Reference Range of 2 to 60. However, thanks to MD's article on getting a physical, I believe that these were elevated due to the intense chest/shoulder workout I had the previous night. As MD said, "(m)any times, elevated AST and ALT in athletes has been mistakenly read as liver damage, possibly overestimating the liver damage caused by steroids , when instead it was due to the muscle damage that follows an intensive workout."
The only other thing that was slightly out of range was my RBC count. Mine was 5.96, and the reference range is 4.20 to 5.80. The doctor noted that my blood flowed slowly (often a high RBC symptom), but he wasn't too conscerned. My Hematocrit was at 50.2, and the reference range on that was 38.5 to 50. So, all in all, my tests turned out pretty good. I plan on watching the RBC through the course of this cycle, and compensating for it if necessary.
On a positive note, my testosterone was in the high end of the reference range. Not too bad after having been on for almost a year and a half. Guess my hcg administration worked as planned. My T-3 uptake, T-4, and IGF-1 all looked good too. This is the first time I have had blood work done, but it's kinda neat to see how your body is affected by aas, and to see how it recovers from them as well. I plan on getting bloodwork done every 2 to 3 months now just so I can better monitor my body. It's not too much of a pain in the ass, and if you guys have insurance, it's not real expensive.
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