Steroids enlarging the heart

[Big_Dan]

Ive begun my research for future use (in a year or so) and want to know how do steroids enlarge the heart as was the case with orville burke. What other extremes should i worry about?
What good sites can i go to?

[symatech]

I think that Orville Burke's heart was enlarged not from steroids but rather GH. GH enlarges everything about you including your internal organs.

[FedSki]

most steriods will cause enlarging of the heart to some degree. after all the heart is a muscle. the more you work the muscle the more it will grow will taking steriods.

i understand it's not a major problem unless you are a juice heavy user over a period of years

[symatech]

Originally posted by FedSki
most steriods will cause enlarging of the heart to some degree. after all the heart is a muscle. the more you work the muscle the more it will grow will taking steriods.

i understand it's not a major problem unless you are a juice heavy user over a period of years

hmm, well that makes sense. this board rocks, you cant learn enough here.

peace

[Decoder]

yup, learn something everyday off these boards, But its a well know fact GH does Enlarge organs, i didn't really think about other AS doing that though.

[FedSki]

i've just read my own posting - can you tell i've been drinking?

[Madmax]

fedski..your name scares me... feds is in it...i hate feds..just thought i'd mention that...every time i see it i think about those dirty little bastards....later bro..Madmax..

[FedSki]

never thought of that

maybe i should change it

[FedSki]

gonna have to disagree with you there bro, well almost

if you are taking large dosages over a prolonged period together with strenuous workouts and cardio you'll end up with a seriously enlarged heart

often the larger your heart the more difficulty it has in pumping blood

i guess what i'm saying is that there is a balance to be struck - i for one will not be doing many cardio sessions during my cycle, i'll wait until the cycle is over

[FedSki]

Found this on www.medhelp.org, which i thought was relevant . . .


Subject: death due to enlarged heart
Topic Area: Heart - General
Forum: The Heart Forum
Question Posted By: celine on Tuesday, April 17, 2001


i have a friend whose daughter died suddenly in her sleep. she was 38 years old with no known health problems. all the toxology reports came back completely normal. at first, the autospy report didn't reveal any problems. later, however, when they finalized the report, the coroner noted an "enlarged Heart" as her cause of death. she had not told anyone of any pain, or any symptoms that would have been suspect. her last doctor visit had shown "slightly elevated blood pressure", but it wasn't high enough that the doctor decided to monitor it. could an enlarged heart(if that was really the case)cause a person's death w/no symptoms? my friend is concerned for her grandchildren(her daughter had 5 kids, all of which still live at home w/their dad)--she is wondering if there's a genetic problem that could affect their heart's as well. thank you for your time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Answer Posted By: CCF-M.D.-CRC on Tuesday, April 17, 2001

Dear celine,

"Enlarged heart" is not strictly a medical term and could mean several different things. Most likely the coroner was refering to a condition called hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM or HCOM). There are many postings on this site concerning this condition. In brief it is a genetic condition that results in thickening of the heart muscle and increased risk of sudden death. It may not be apparent on physical exam and individuals may have no symptoms. If this is indeed the diagnosis her children are at risk of having this condition and should be screened with an ECG at least an possibly an echocardiogram.

[Doc M]

DickRene..Calm yourself brother..I thought you were going ot break out the chainsaw on him for the post.

I am going to support your post by saying this to all members, visitors, or anyone else who cares. Posts like this can lead people to believe information that may in fact be false or a distortion of the truth. I am a Doc and I try to keep the medical postings to a bare minimum as to try and keep this information simple and relevant to the topics. AAS use can affect people in various ways for various reasons. Age, physical health, medical history, diet, excercie, and underlying conditions can all have a part in how someone responds to AAS use.

The moral of the story is that the information on this site should be read, researched, and then researched some more before you make the decision to introduce chemicals into your body. This site is for informational purposes only. It does not take the place of a Doctor and it certainly does not aid in making a particular diagnosis. Please, before anyone makes posts that are of a medical nature, think carefully before doing so. We have many visiotrs and members who take what they read here and run with it and needless to say that's a bit foolish.

If you have heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, or even just a damn club foot, get checked out before yuo do anything. We all want to be muscular and lean, but it's not worth complicating serious health issues.

And my final sermon..AAS can cause various side effects, but an enlarging of the heart directly from cardiovascualr excercise is not one of them. Generally this condition progresses due to other factors. It is perfectly safe to combine cardiovascular work with weight training while utilizing a cycle. However, if you are using some of the harsher drugs, then you should pay careful attention to your blood pressure, frequent nose bleeds, headaches, etc.. These could be early warning signs that should not be ignored. Okay Dick..I think we got our point across!!

[hammerhead]

Fedski - nice post but that's unrelated to AS-induced cardiomegaly. AS typically leads to left-ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) - the main culprit behind that is elevated blood pressure. Seriously - time off is important in this aspect. The heart will probably return to normal size if given an adequate off time after a cycle. It is extended use that increases the risk of cardiomegaly. Don't stay on roids for years without giving your body a break. Here is an argument against bridging!

This thread is good in another way - it shows how people react to each others opinions of fact. Admit it - we all ask other people for thier opinions and we place varying degrees of value on thier opinions whether it be on these boards or in the gym locker or at your local bar with your friends. This board is not any huge opportunity for people to be exposed to misinformation. I agree with what the good doctor has stated - if we are going to post our opinions authoratatively and convince others that we know what we're talking about we owe it to them to know what we're talking about! This board is a huge opportunity for people to share knowledge and will benefit us all as long as we are responsible with how we state fact as fact. I post my opinions and state facts using research - the same research that a journalist would use and would print in the newspaper or say on TV as fact. And we all know that is not always fact. To err is human. That will happen. It is everyone's own responsibility to get thier medical advice from thier doctor and not from this board. Without trying to take the place of your doctor I still will post the opinion that we all should take adequate time off between cycles and think twice before bridging. And that adds value to our discussions. I am not disagreeing with you doc - I am just pointing to the other side of the coin.

[Big_Dan]

What other extreme effects are RELATED then to AAS as was the case with orville burke.
DNP causes psychosis. I have a friend whom this happenned.
Ive read steroids can cause pshychosis (drug induced).
It can cause hairloss (some of them)
And nut shrinkage.

Where can I inform myself DEEPLY on the subject.
Any famous posts, sites, medical journals, recommendations?
Thanks

[hammerhead]

I'm unaware of any established link between realistic AS usage and psychosis.

You can start by reading the drug profiles here on anabolic review.

Here are some links for ya
http://www.meso-rx.com/books/anabolics-2002.htm
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/main.php
http://www.bodybuilding.com/
http://www.steroids.com/

That'll keep you busy for awhile. Do some research and come here and ask smart questions and post cool stuff you've found and everybody will reward you for it. I'm always willing to learn.

[ichabodcrane]

Just wondering if any of you guys have ever came across actual studies supporting AAS directly to enlarged heart. We all know this topic comes up all the time. It is a fact that strength athletes and intense athletics in general can cause some degree of ventricular hypertrophy. But I have yet to come across any clinical studies which positively relate AAS use to enlarged heart alone. Many other things need to be considered. Of course HTN being the main one. And yes AAS do cause HTN, but you can control this.

[FedSki]

Originally posted by dickrenegade
your story about HCM is a genetic condition in which cardio exercises and steroids have no bearing on.

I'm aware the story was not directly related to AAS but I was trying to show that and enlarged heart, caused by whatever factor is dangerous. So chill out dick - I didn't say it was related to my earlier posting - you tied the two together.

[FedSki]

Also, isn't it strange how many body builders die from heart complications including over sized hearts. Research has show that HGH can cause enlarge heart and other organs, and research has also shown that AAS increases colesterol. Many doctors, including my best mate's wife and cardiologists believe that steriods do cause an enlarging of the heart. Where's the evidence to show that cardio during a cycle will reduce the problem?

I'm no doctor - but I know a few and have asked questions and done my research. Dick are you a trained medical professional? If you are and have research material that supports your statements then I'd like to see it.

[hammerhead]

Here's a piece of research for you. This is right along the discussion. The bottom line is researches found enlargement of the heart taking place in strength training athletes - both on and not on steroids . Although those taking steroids had a marked increase in heart wall thickening there was at least one non-steroid using athlete with a dangerously high degree of it.



Researchers examined 4 elite resistance-trained athletes by two-dimensional echocardiography. In addition, they retrospectively examined the individual left ventricular dimensions of 13 bodybuilders from our previous echocardiographic studies. All 4 elite resistance-trained athletes had left ventricular wall thicknesses beyond 13 mm. One of the elite bodybuilders has the largest left ventricular wall thickness (16 mm) ever reported in a power athlete. Retrospectively, 43% of the drug-free bodybuilders and 100% of the steroid users had left ventricular wall thickness beyond the normal range of 11 mm. In addition, 1 drug-free subject and 3 steroid users were beyond the critical mark of 13 mm. No subjects demonstrated diastolic dysfunction. In contrast to previous reports, we have demonstrated that left ventricular wall thicknesses >=13 mm can be found routinely in elite resistance-trained athletes who do not use anabolic steroids.

Left ventricular hypertrophy is characterized by thickening of the left ventricular wall secondary to cardiac fiber enlargement. Left ventricular hypertrophy is normally caused by a chronic increase in systemic blood pressure. It may also be seen with sudden or rapid weight gain. The thickening of the ventricular wall due to increased afterload from elevated vascular resistance can be viewed as adaptive protection up to a point. Beyond minor wall thickening, left ventricular hypertrophy is a strong predictor of serious cardiovascular risk.

During heavy lifting, systemic blood pressure is increased from what is called the valsalva maneuver. It is simply the act of forceful expiration with the mouth and nose closed producing a "bearing down" on the abdomen. Pressure also increases due to blood vessels being occluded by contracting muscles. It should be noted that the LVH seen in bodybuilders and power lifters is called "concentric left ventricular hypertrophy", meaning that it is the result of contracting against acute increased systemic pressure, and was not considered pathological. "Eccentric" LVH is caused by constant increases of blood pressure not as a result of the valsalva maneuver but instead clinical hypertension that forces the ventrical to expand against resistance. It was previously believed that the intermittent increase in blood pressure that is caused by heavy lifting was not sufficient to elicit left concentric ventricular hypertrophy (CLVH). Any evidence of CLVH in strength athletes or bodybuilders was seen as a sign of anabolic steroid use .

In the study above researchers identified LVH at or beyond 13mm in not only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids but also in "drug free" athletes as well. Although it was shown that those using anabolics showed significantly more ventricular thickening, at least one drug free athlete was beyond the 13mm limit.

[FedSki]

Originally posted by hammerhead
In the study above researchers identified LVH at or beyond 13mm in not only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids but also in "drug free" athletes as well. Although it was shown that those using anabolics showed significantly more ventricular thickening, at least one drug free athlete was beyond the 13mm limit.

Hmm, interesting. So those using steriods show significantly more ventricular thickening. I wonder if they'd been doing their cardio.

Nice one hammerhead.

[FedSki]

This came from the United Kingdom House of Parliament archives. The last paragraph is interesting . . .

It is said that anabolic steriods are being supplied in virtually every gymnasium in the country, and because such recreation is informal there is no question of those people who have access to and take such drugs being tested. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr. Hargreaves), who is unhappily unable to be here because of a constituency engagement, spoke to me in the Lobby last night. He has made a study of the subject and has acquired considerable information, which I am sure he will be happy to make available to the Under-Secretary if he has not already done so.

How can one tell that someone is abusing anabolic steroids ? There are a number of tell-tale signs : first, a sudden and unexplained improvement in performance ; secondly, a dramatic increase in muscle bulk ; and thirdly, sudden unexplained bouts of aggression. Why do I believe that those drugs should be controlled under the 1971 Act? First, they are known to have the potential to damage health ; they are known to carry with them the risk of cancer, especially of the liver. They are known to affect the sexual characteristics of both men and women and to give rise to blood clotting.

So far, we have no experience of the long-term effects of the abuse of anabolic steroids , but there is evidence of at least one death caused by steroid abuse , that of Tom Hawk, a body-builder, who, upon post-mortem examination, having died suddenly and without explanation, was found to have a grossly enlarged heart which the cardiologist responsible for the examination considered could be attributed to abuse of anabolic steroids.

[hammerhead]

Originally posted by Big_Dan
What other extreme effects are RELATED then to AAS as was the case with orville burke.
DNP causes psychosis. I have a friend whom this happenned.
Ive read steroids can cause pshychosis (drug induced).
It can cause hairloss (some of them)
And nut shrinkage.

Human behavior is a complex phenomenon and efforts to identify single causes or causes within single systems (social, biological or psychological) are likely to provide a limited picture of reality. Such an effort has suggested that AS use causes aggression. Perhaps, in part, this results from accepting the association between two behaviors, such as AAS use and aggression, as a cause-effect relationship. The establishment of cause and effect requires not only that two phenomena co-occur (as do AS use and aggression in some users), but also occur in a specific temporal fashion (as does AS-related aggression in some users, although true longitudinal studies are lacking). The best test of causation is the experimental method, involving random assignment to drug-administration conditions, the administration of "credible" placebo treatments, and the evaluation of changes in outcomes of interest among the different treatment groups.

A concurrent association between AS use and aggression has been found in numerous survey-based studies. Studies have attempted to look at the relationship between AS use and aggression over time and reported some relationship between AS cycles and increased aggression through the evaluation of retrospective reports. Such studies are not truly longitudinal in nature and are subject to a variety of potential shortcomings (retrospective memory biases, expectancy effects). Experimental studies have not found consistent evidence for a direct causal relationship between AAS use and aggression and have suggested the possibility for an effect of drug expectancy in aggressive outcomes from AS, but even these findings are limited in their scope and generality. The existing studies suffer from inconsistencies in assessment strategy (self-report v. observer ratings), as well as the absence of truly credible placeboes.

Society often views cause and effect categorically, tending to favor explanations that are exclusively biological, social, or psychological and to view "biologically caused" behavior as primary and "uncontrollable" and socially or psychologically motivated behavior as secondary and volitional. These views often underlie the desire to determine biological causes for behavior. However, this view is far too simplistic and judgmental. Many human behaviors occur in an automatic fashion but are not exclusively based in our physiology.

[FedSki]

What I want to see is evidence that AAS does not cause an enlarging of the heart and/or cardio prevents an enlarging of the heart while taking AAS.

[Doc M]

FedSki,

I'm not too sure which dorection you are attempting to take this in, but let me give you some advice. Studies are inherently flawed. Variables exist that many times are out of the control of the test subjects and/or test administers. Example: The study that Hammerhead posted only included 4 athletes, and we as readers are not able to determine if there are other relevant factors that need to be considered in making our conclusion. Yes, this study offers insight, but it does not offer an absolute.

If you are attempting to disprove DickRenegades post, this is not the place. This post has already jumped around on topic and it is confusing for people to decipher what is useful information. I am sure Dick wouldn't mind a PM to debate tis topic.

I will close with this. I do not, and none of the other Doctor's I have ever worked with would discourage cardiovascular excercise while using AAS unless the individual had some condition that warranted this. I, and not any other Doc would say with an absolute that AAS causes enlargement of the heart to a dangerous level. There are few absolutes in medicine and the variables that exist prevent this determination. Can AAS cause a moderate enlargement and thickening of the walls..Yes!! Doe sit happen to everyone who uses AAS..NO!! If you feel this is really a concern of yours, than I would strongly discourage the use of AAS. It's not worth it! Good luck in whatever decision you make.

I hope this thread dies a peaceful death!!