A little over 2 weeks into my cycle and hair loss?

**Jist** · 02-01-2003, 10:22 PM

I am just a little more than 2 weeks into my cycle taking 400mg of eq a week and 25mg dbol ed. Every time I take a shower I notice a decent amount of hair on my hands not huge clumps but more than I can remember than in the past. Do you think this is just me freaking out since its my 1st cycle. Moreover, is a loss of hair common while on gear and then once I am off it the hair will come back?

**Warrior** · 02-01-2003, 10:29 PM

I got an itching head while on Equipoise and a buddy had me check for hair loss - and lone behold. Minimal... but it was apparent. The funny thing is i am not prone with much more androgenic gear. Equipoise seems to have a hair issue.

Also - testing for hair loss in the shower isn't the best time. Try to shake some out during the day or check your pillow in the morning.

I would suggest getting on some Saw Palmetto - mega dose the first week then maintain a reasonable dose. Get a standardized extract version.

**Pinch** · 02-01-2003, 11:02 PM

Hell i got itchy head off 500mg of test enanth... but that doesn't necesairly mean you are losing hair. It would itch really bad when i would go into the gym and lift heavy. I also noticed increased dandruff, but couldn't notice any hair loss.

I suppose itchy head and dandruff are precoursors to hair loss...

**sd11** · 02-02-2003, 01:20 AM

I'm probably going to get into one of my vitamin/herbs rants here so I'll apologize and ask you to bear with me studying them is one of my passions...........
First off I think the jury will always be out on herbs, standardized or not IMO. Standardization is the process of creating the particular product (saw palmetto in this case) with a specific minimum level of one or more plant constituents. Now this is done in two ways:
1.measuring the chemicals level in a natural unaltered herbal extract then determining a standard for future production
2. a portion of the entire extract is concentarted and then standardized to the constituent decided to be most important
So what I'm saying is you can either take a whole herb extract, get rid of the fiber and cellulose and leave the rest or it can be standardized to only leave certain constituents(requires solvents and heat to destroy possible toxic residue). I'm of the opinion that standardization is a big scam, I don't see how a standardized substance is better than the way nature made it. This makes less and less of the natural substance available. The worst part is this heating process essentially destroys plant cell constituents and oil fragments which are highly beneficial. Saw Palmetto for example in the standardized form is the fruit oil of serenoa repens, but all the other beneficial nutritional factors are discarded.
As far as Saw Palmetto combating hair loss(androgenetic alopecia) it has never been proven. What these supplement companies have done is make an assumption. Saw Palmetto has been proven to be an anti androgen. It lowers DHT levels by blocking 5 alpha reductase and it blocks membranes receptor sites which are essential in absorbing DHT. I'm sure many of you are aware of Saw Palmetto and it's connection to benign prostate disease, there have been numerous studies. The assumption that has been made is since benign prostate disease depends on the production of DHT and so does androgenetic alopecia, that saw palmetto works for the one so it should work for the other. However no study has ever proved this. Personally I think Saw Palmetto isn't the best choice, but if your going to use it get a topical solution. If you are interested in alternate natural means of possibly preventing hair loss, feel free to pm me I've already wrote too much and I'm sure I bored you all.

**Warrior** · 02-02-2003, 01:44 AM

Taking the herb as a whole usually results in unpredictable strengths of the active ingredient. And a much weaker capsule than if the extras were to be removed. So I am far from agreeing that a standardized product is not as good as a whole herbal form. Herbs are natures medicine cabinet - used for many, many years with success. And taking it in a raw for is no way superior than a standardized product - the extras are not the beneficial portion, it is the active ingredient that gives results. But buy what you want to... I'll buy standardized products so I know what exactly i am putting in my body and a more potent capsule - less pill popping. IMO.

**Warrior** · 02-02-2003, 01:46 AM

No FDA study has proven Saw Palmetto as an effective DHT blocker - but many private studies deffinitly have. FDA pays little attention to herbs - and the same FDA recommends Vitamin C at 60mg per day... FDA is pretty much useless. Athletes go buy PDI's - Performance Daily Intakes.

**Matt Foley** · 02-02-2003, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Warrior
No FDA study has proven Saw Palmetto as an effective DHT blocker - but many private studies deffinitly have. FDA pays little attention to herbs - and the same FDA recommends Vitamin C at 60mg per day... FDA is pretty much useless. Athletes go buy PDI's - Performance Daily Intakes.

i still take my saw palmetto too

get gelcaps and run it 320mg ed throughout.nizerol for the hairline.works wonders

**sd11** · 02-02-2003, 10:00 PM

Ok Warrior I'm aware you know what standardization is, but I'll just write this for anyone else who reads this and may not. Standardization in simplest terms is a guaranteed standard which provides a consistent percentage of the phytochemical in question. This is done because potency in plant chemicals varies so greatly due to storage, age, season, handling, environment, etc.
Warrior you couldn't have been more on when you said "herbs are natures medicine cabinet - used for many many years with success." That's where the debate arises however, now I'm of the belief that SE or GP is just a way to get more money out of the consumer. I you ask any traditional herbalist or anyone who studies herbology they will most likely shun the concept of standardization. Traditional herbology does not place interest in the individual phytochemical actions, rather the synergy with all of the other plant constituents. Stripping all the plants ingredients takes so much away from the herb and IMO leaves us with a synthetic product, not a natural one. Those natural whole herbs are what makes up natures medicine cabinet. Now I'm not trying to bash you in anyway for buying SE, it's a highly debated topic and there are so many different opinions, just thought I'd share mine. IMO the herbal market has been infiltrated by pharmaceutical companies and as a result we are left with phytopharmaceuticals. Before I finish...everything the FDA says should be thrown out with tommorow mornings trash!

**Warrior** · 02-03-2003, 12:23 AM

I don't know man. I just believe that extracting the active ingredient to standardize it's use is best. I mean... it's like many other things were you extract the ingredients that you want. Even Vitamins (natural sources, not synthetic) are extracted to give a standardized product.

Put it this way, say an orange has 30mg of Vitamin C. Why eat the whole orange? Why not just take an extracted vitamin C to be sure you get the whole 30mg's. And by throwing away the "extras" you eliminate a shit load of orange eating to get the recommended PDI of around 1 gram of Vitamin C per day - which would require eating over 30 oranges every day!

But I see what you are saying - but I think the idea that the whole plant needs to be injested for best absorbtion is a very traditional concept... a tradional herbalist would agree with you... this is the best way I can put it. I think you know what I am getting at. I believe when taking in the role of science and grabbing the active indredients to make a standardized product - you get a superior capsule by throwing out the "extras." And sometimes adding other active ingredients to increase the absorbtion rate...

But a good arguement nonetheless. It seems it would be traditional vs conventional thinking...

**sd11** · 02-03-2003, 01:09 AM

Yeah I definitely agree it's traditional vs scientific advancement. I dont think the whole plant provides better absorbtion, rather just more benefits and better synergy. More so I guess I was presenting the $ arguement. I see the point with the vitamin c, but that argues whole food vs supplement...and I was debating supplement vs cheaper supplement. Your are smart bro Warrior and I'm glad to be talking to someone about natural products, I can go on all day.

**Warrior** · 02-03-2003, 01:41 AM

**Matt Foley** · 02-03-2003, 01:48 AM

just two different schools of thought.i have had success with both.

**OT8268** · 02-03-2003, 10:29 PM

this is good because I just bought concentrated saw palmetto and have been using it for a week, is this garbage? I actually thihk my standardized one worked better

**sd11** · 02-04-2003, 02:13 AM

Use what works best for you.....

**husun** · 02-04-2003, 06:02 PM

what should be the usage on this. Saw Palmetto Berries (serenoa repens) - Amount Per Capsule is 540mg

says on bottle take 1 to 3 capsules, 3 times daily.

seems like alot?

**sd11** · 02-04-2003, 09:48 PM

It's such a hard question to answer, and that's what warrior meant when he was talking about using SE and knowing exactly what he was putting into his body.
If you were using SE 320mg ed containing 85-95% fatty acids and sterols, but when using a raw product you don't know exactly what you are getting and have to compensate for reduced potency by taking a larger dose....and I don't know of any easy way to figure out how much of the raw product is equivalent to the extract.