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  1. #1
    amnesiac is offline New Member
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    how much sustanon is enough?

    What is the MINIMUM amount of sustanon 250 I need to take to see results? I want only mild gains, about 15 lbs lean muscle. I will run EQ for 12 weeks, 400mg/wk. If I take sustanon at 250 mgs/wk for 8 weeks, will I see any of the gains, of will it be a waste? I only want to take the sust to maximize the gains from the EQ. Agian, I am looking for good, lean gains... nothing too swoll. Thank you guys!

  2. #2
    abstrack's Avatar
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    do a SEARCH bro!! this thread has been answered time and time again, not trying to be a dick but the answers are there

  3. #3
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    I'll say it again......I have done 250mg ew for my fist cycle with good results. Since you have Eq in there with it , you should make out better than I did with just 250mg of Sus ew all by itself. I'm not going into how the esters in Sus 250 work...research it. There is a ton of info on this. Hit the research button bro. Good Luck

  4. #4
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    Go atleast 500 per week on the Sus. Yes you will have some gains on 250 but 500 is the minimim that I would recommend. 400 EQ and 500 Sus is a good cycle. To get the full effect of Sus, it shoudl be ran at 750, so you can take full advantage of the Prop, however, 500 is good also!

  5. #5
    abstrack's Avatar
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    maybe take advantage of the phenyl-prop not the prop at 30mg
    from fri- to mon is a long ways awayin the half life of prop.

  6. #6
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    This explains the half life and is great for showing you how much test is in your body at any givin day. http://www.come.to/roidcalc

  7. #7
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    Re: i don't get it...

    Originally posted by dickrenegade
    why do you consistently argue that you should be so concerned about the phenyl prop when it's only 30mg of the total 250mg? the whole point of having the long acting esters is that you wouldn't have to shoot it eod. shooting it eod will have a much greater effect (at least it did for me), but i think it was just because i was putting more test in my system. what you say contradicts what many say about sustanon .

    dick
    why waste your money??? would you go out and buy prop and only shoot 1 or 2 times a week, if you answer yes to this, Then I have some sandy white beach front property in Oklahoma for sale!!!! most guys on the threads you are refering to shoot the sus 1 time a week so your wasting the phenyl-prop and the prop--so now you wasting 90mg of test, but i guess this is ok with you??shooting 3 days a week is better than nothing but still from your friday shot to your monday shot you are going over the half life of the phenyl-prop.--I think your missing the point in these threads your refering to--I think it is more wiser to just but some type of gear that has a longer acting ester in it. but go ahead keep wasting your money and you could even start posting the great results you get off sus at only 250 a week. pm me if you are interested in the beach front!!


    --one more thing, I am not arguing with anybody-my advice is simply my opinion, you can take it or leave or even tell to "have a cup of shut the fuck up" also if you read on the half life of the 4 esters in sus you will have a second thought at least maybe one thought might come to mind???
    Last edited by abstrack; 02-05-2003 at 06:19 AM.

  8. #8
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    if you two can't be nice to each other you guys are getting a time out...didn't you guys have a disagreement a while back...can't we all just get along....Madmax...

  9. #9
    abstrack's Avatar
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    i would love to get in this pissing match with you about who can hit the wall from the farthest distance DICK but no sense. and as far as your intelligent conversation goes, i have a better chance at dunking a basketball. Godd luck MR. Pharmacology/hospital/renegade

  10. #10
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    I think the prop in Sust is a waste no matter how you take it. I rather see them take it out and put more medium ester in it...

    Pain

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by painintheazz
    I think the prop in Sust is a waste no matter how you take it. I rather see them take it out and put more medium ester in it...

    Pain
    I definately agree!

  12. #12
    Matt Foley's Avatar
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    chemically sust is designed well but not made for its use.sust should be injected ed.there are various formats in taking sust ed or eod but with the short ester why not?

  13. #13
    fresno_smooth is offline New Member
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    Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but do the different esters "kick in" at different times. I thought the decanoate took about a week.

  14. #14
    bigdog2502002 is offline Junior Member
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    oh boy, here we go again.......
    yes, but when they leave your system it what is being debated. So far its pretty interesting...

  15. #15
    abstrack's Avatar
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    I am done with this one, For the sake of D.renagade and everybody else who seems to think I like to "argue". Well no more, next time I see anybody ask a question on sus, I am going to promote how it is such a great buy and how well it works at low dosages, once you just saturate the receptors your all good, more bang for your buck on sus:

  16. #16
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by abstrack
    I am done with this one, For the sake of D.renagade and everybody else who seems to think I like to "argue". Well no more, next time I see anybody ask a question on sus, I am going to promote how it is such a great buy and how well it works at low dosages, once you just saturate the receptors your all good, more bang for your buck on sus:
    Ok bro , I don't want to piss you off or anything but..........If you were to run Sus Mon , Wed , Friday, Sun , Tues, etc..... Wouldn't the prop be better utilized than going the traditional way of Mon., Wed., Fri. ? This is how I think I'm going to run the Sus in my cycle.

  17. #17
    abstrack's Avatar
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    I have no idea?? PM MR DICKRENAGADE, I have not read the latest in pharmacology books so I have no idea in what we are talking about. sorry bro, but mr dick is far more the "intelligent" souce here on this board. it is up to you, 250 a week is plenty

    >also please do not take my advice, my answers or opinions are cleary based on bullshit and not on facts
    Last edited by abstrack; 02-07-2003 at 05:29 AM.

  18. #18
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by abstrack
    I have no idea?? PM MR DICKRENAGADE, I have not read the latest in pharmacology books so I have no idea in what we are talking about. sorry bro, but mr dick is far more the "intelligent" souce here on this board. it is up to you, 250 a week is plenty

    >also please do not take my advice, my answers or opinions are cleary based on bullshit and not on facts
    Bro , you need to not let that idiot rent space in your head. There are a lot of his types on all the boards. I'm just scrolling past his posts , I'm looking facts not bullshit and that's all he's pushing. I will NEVER pm him...even if he was the last source left out there. Take care bro

  19. #19
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    Come on fellas, lets have a nice group inject and all calm down a little. There will always be a debate on Sust, everything is everyones opions, while something might work for someone the same thing might not work for someone else!! Can't we just take it as "sust works good for me when I do it like this, bla bla bla"!!!

    Pain

  20. #20
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    I'm starting to feel the love...........

  21. #21
    painintheazz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sick1
    I'm starting to feel the love...........
    Thats what I like to see.

    Pain

  22. #22
    abstrack's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by painintheazz
    [B]Come on fellas, lets have a nice group inject and all calm down


  23. #23
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    I would LOVE to inject , but I gotta wait until April.
    AAAAAHHHH , I just might start at the beginning of March....it'll have been 2 months off of a 4 month cycle so I think I'll be good to go by then. And I just might go with eod

  24. #24
    abstrack's Avatar
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    Originally posted by sick1
    Ok bro , I don't want to piss you off or anything but..........If you were to run Sus Mon , Wed , Friday, Sun , Tues, etc..... Wouldn't the prop be better utilized than going the traditional way of Mon., Wed., Fri. ? This is how I think I'm going to run the Sus in my cycle.
    I really do not understand what your asking here??
    if you run ed??sun-mon-tues-wed-thur-fri-sat-etc..??

    thats alot of gear to be pushing in my opinion, not that you can not do ed injections with the sus but you would be pushing 1.25g of test per week--whoa!!--I hope you grow on this--hehehe-have those Ancillaries on hand!

    "If, I was to do it I would start out my weeks on sun-tue-thru-sat then go to mon-wed-fri-sun then my 3rd weeks i would be back to tues-thur-sat-just eod for the whole 12 weeks or 10 or whatever. I really would not be looking at what i do each week just making sure every other day i would be injecting, some weeks would be less than others. when i do my cycle like this i will post the results and let you know how things worked out for me, but this will not be for months from now.

    but thats is just me I have never ran it that way so Icould not tell you dfferent, but using it this way makes the best sense to me. I figure if I am going to have 4 esters-2 long and 2 short in my concauction i am going to utilize all 4 to the best I can and let them do there work.

    now people have posted there cycles with doing 500mg per week shot on mon and shot on thurs or what ever and say they had greaat results-ok-whom am i to say they are lying!! if they did great do it again your next cycle.

    i seen people post with running it 750/week-splitting the shots up into 3 days- what ever those chioces were??---claiming great results--good for them!! I am not saying they are lying and not advocating them to not do it again, if it worked for them--great-do it again there next cycle.

  25. #25
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by abstrack


    I really do not understand what your asking here??
    if you run ed??sun-mon-tues-wed-thur-fri-sat-etc..??

    thats alot of gear to be pushing in my opinion, not that you can not do ed injections with the sus but you would be pushing 1.25g of test per week--whoa!!--I hope you grow on this--hehehe-have those Ancillaries on hand!
    What I am saying (I'm not going to do it ) is......IF your stating doing Sus once or twice a week is not good enough , and it needs to be ran eod because of the prop. Why not run it every other day meaning you would be doing it different days each wk. Example......Mon. Weds. Fri. Sun. Tues. Thurs. Sat.....blah , blah , blah. Blod levels will stay far more even in this manner. Thats ALL I'm saying bro. I know this whole Sustanon topic is curling your hair , but.......chill bro.
    I'm not looking to argue in the least. We are all giving our opinions and judgements and our personal experience. Have A Great Day
    Last edited by Ozzy; 02-07-2003 at 08:45 AM.

  26. #26
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    Originally posted by abstrack
    now people have posted there cycles with doing 500mg per week shot on mon and shot on thurs or what ever and say they had greaat results-ok-whom am i to say they are lying!! if they did great do it again your next cycle.
    I was planning on running it that way on my next. Interesting thread though...makes you rethink things a bit. But screw it, I couldn't stand ED injects so this is how I'm running it and I'll let my experience determine my opinion.

  27. #27
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    hey sick bro, I wasnt trying to come off as yelling or anything and we can discuss this for days untill whenever, with you and most of the bros on here we can have a discussion without calling eachother less intelligent, ok back to the point I think that you would take far more advatage of the two props in sus( pheynl-prop, prop) thats why is suggest the eod enjections--there is a total or 90mg of test here were talking about. why not use them to the best of your advantage. no stress here bro, like I said we can talk as long as you would like and if you want to pm me drop me a line!! hit me up if you want to:

  28. #28
    Madmax's Avatar
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    abstrack....

    did you ever think that your avatar may spook people because all you see is your eyes...i always feel someones behind me when ever i see the damn thing...Madmax..

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by Madmax
    abstrack....

    did you ever think that your avatar may spook people because all you see is your eyes...i always feel someones behind me when ever i see the damn thing...Madmax..
    LMAO!!


    Yeah, I am the fedarali~ at your door---roflmao

    now send me your gear for the sake of research

  30. #30
    Ozzy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by abstrack
    hey sick bro, I wasnt trying to come off as yelling or anything and we can discuss this for days untill whenever, with you and most of the bros on here we can have a discussion without calling eachother less intelligent, ok back to the point I think that you would take far more advatage of the two props in sus( pheynl-prop, prop) thats why is suggest the eod enjections--there is a total or 90mg of test here were talking about. why not use them to the best of your advantage. no stress here bro, like I said we can talk as long as you would like and if you want to pm me drop me a line!! hit me up if you want to:
    Ok Bro, No Problem........thanks for all your input.

  31. #31
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    Re: didn't mean to offend.

    Originally posted by dickrenegade
    didn't mean to imply anyone is smarter than anyone else. for all i know you could all be nuclear physicists jacked up on roids.

    correct me if i'm wrong but i just don't know how you can expect me to have an intelligent discussion with you about why the reason sust shot qod works better than q week when you never even mention steady state or half lives.

    prop alone should be should ed in my opinion... does that mean everything with prop in it should be? according to what you guys are saying: yes. i don't know how you can say that? what if it were 5mgs as opposed to 30mgs per 250 mgs total test?

    i agree, qd or qod will work better... but i know for sure it's not b/c you're getting that extra 30's cc's of prop qd or qod. it's just the fact you're putting more test in your system.

    you have to take the half lives of all four test's into account. there will come a time when the degredation/conversoin of the test (by the liver, fat cells, etc) = the amount created (ie broken down from the esters into more active form) aka "steady state"... such that the bump from the 30 cc's each shot will be insignificant compared to the concentration you already have in your system. do a search on yahoo and spend five minutes reading about it.

    i ask'ed a pharm'D about this the other day as well.

    where's that heartdocmd guy or ichabodcrane when you need em?! i'm drowning here and i don't have the time to search for articles or type novel long replies!!

    dick
    you are right i did not mention the half-lives of the 2 props--not in this thread but in a previous thread I went through this already and thats why I told the guy to go search, also some of the other guys on this thread already read that thread. but any hoo!! the 60mg of pheynl-prop has a half life of about 3 daya so shooting eod is better to keep your levels more consitent, the 30mg of prop has a half life of 1-2 days, so shooting eod is fine-shooting ed would be better but you can get away with going eod on this one. so we have 90mg of test that need to be utilized to it best potential--IMO--so really were not just talking about 30mg of prop--90mg of test is alot to me and I think it should be used--so a guy using 750mg os sus a week will get away fine-a guy doing 500mg will be ok--I GUESS??? but a guy going eod is going to be rockin the ship_IMO--he is taking advantage of all 250mg of test

  32. #32
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    Dickrenegade, I've seen charts on what you're talking about. The first couple weeks, the levels aren't stable. But at some point, due to the timing of the esters, levels stabilize. I'll see if I can find some data somewhere.

  33. #33
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SOMETIMESGOOD AT ANABOLICMADNESS.COM.
    THERE WAS A GRAPH HE INCLUDED BUT IT WOULDN'T PASTE HERE. HERE IS THE LINK TO THE THREAD:

    http://www.anabolicmadness.com/yabbs...d=3450;start=0




    Ok, guys, here goes. This is a copy/paste of my reply to a similar sust topic over at muscletalk. If anyone would like to look into this further, just let me know, I'm always up for analyzing more data/research.

    BTW - when I get a little time, actually, more like, when the mood strikes me, I'm going to calculate ester weight and go back and compensate for that. It'll be interesting to see just exactly how much test you really have in you (you might be surprised).

    start post:
    -------------------------------
    Guys, I'll only argue this once, since I don't feel like getting in any kind of fight over this. When you analyze the release times of a steroid ester, you find out it isn't an exact science, it is front-loaded and most of the active component, in this case testosterone , is released in the first 24 hours, decreasing after that. Refer to the following graphs. They illustrate ACTIVE milligrams of testosterone, factoring in ~6% waste on 250mg of Sustanon and 250mg of Enanthate shot every three days.


    Notice they are almost identical. If anyone wants to go over the data for these graphs, I'll go into more detail. There's a lot to understand about steroid esters and how they work. You have to understand that just because a steroid has a long-acting ester does NOT mean it does not release anything in the first 24 hours or 48 hours it is in your body.

    You also need to understand that a HALF-LIFE of 1 or 2 days does not mean a DEAD life of 1 or 2 days, it means that you only have HALF left. It also does not mean that if you shoot 100mg of testosterone with a half-life of 2 days that over the course of 48 hours you have a perfectly linear release of testosterone into your bloodstream of 50mg. Depending on the ester used (and to a small degree the individual) you would have approximately 35mg released in the first 24 hours, and about 15mg in the second 24 hours. This might even be a little cautious on the distribution, it could be closer to 40/10.

    If you look at the distribution of esters and their releases over the first 24 hours of administration, sustanon looks something like this for day one:

    Ester Half-life mg Day 1
    Sustanon
    Propionate 2 30 10
    Phenylpropionate3 60 12
    isocaproate 6 60 7
    decanoate 8 100 10

    39

    Compare that to enanthate's first 24 hours of release, which is a single ester, so easier to estimate: 35mg. Day 2 is 29 and 30, sust, enanthate, respectively. When you should again on Day 4 (E3D), you have approximately 59.5mg of active test from sustanon in your system in that next 24 hours and 55mg of active test in your system from enanthate. The graphs speak for themselves.

    If you reference Anabolics 2002, by William Llewellyn, page 159, you'll see that one study showed the release of enanthate to be even more aggressive than my estimates.

    It's actually much simpler to treat them both as having an approximate 5-day half-life. The esters, when totalled in mg active in your blood, are nearly identical after the first week.

    --------------------------
    end first post
    begin follow-up:
    --------------------------
    -quote from another user:

    so why does it not work for three weeks unless frontloaded?

    I am sorry but I don't know how to read graphs or what they are trying to show as I have no scientific knowledge?

    ------------------------------------------------------------



    Hey, bud, the graphs are showing you what's in your bloodstream at any particular time. Depending on how your body reacts to either one, it'll take it a while to start "noticing" or metabolizing the extra testosterone. This is not really scientifically exact, but I'm just trying to make it simple for ya. Both enanthate and sustanon will be "noticed" in about the same time frame. Some people vary some, but not much.

    Let me try to explain why an all-short-ester dosing cycle (test suspension, test propionate AKA prop) is "felt" sooner than a dosing cycle with an average ester release time of 5-days. There are two major reasons, one is frequency of administration, the other is ester weight.

    For frequency of administration, take Testosterone Suspension for example. Most people will administer either 50 or 100mg/day. For Testosterone Enanthate a good average would be 250mg every 3 days (as I used hypothetically in my graphs above). Looking at Testosterone Suspension, and assuming the same approximate 6% loss of active compound, you'll get about 46mg of active Testosterone EVERY DAY from a daily injection schedule of 50mg of Test Suspension. Looking at Test Enanthate, and following the data already outline above, your first three days look more like: 35, 30, 23, milligrams of active testosterone, respectively. Now, on that fourth day you shoot another shot, this is going to give you 55, 47, 40 active milligrams of testosterone for your fourth, fifth and sixth days. Notice a couple days were higher than 46mg daily of Test Suspension, but we've not maintained sufficiently high blood level concentrations of testosterone yet to be really effective. Don't fool yourself, it's starting to act on your system, but nothing like the jolt that 46, 46, 46, 46, 46, 46 was giving you from the Suspension.

    The weight of an ester is the next piece we have to address. You're also going to see the numbers above are not precise for Test Enanthate because I did not compensate for the weight of the Enanthate ester. When you look at the mg. active of Testosterone in the above paragraph, go back and knock 39% off the Enanthate numbers. When comparing 100mg of Enanthate to 100mg of Suspension, it would take 139mg of Enanthate to equal 100mg of Suspension as pure Testosterone once the Enanthate ester is removed Suspension is a pure testosterone molecule without the added weight of an ester; mg - milligrams, are weight, or mass. Enanthate is testosterone with the enanthate ester attached. The molecular weight of the Enanthate ester takes up a good portion of its mass, or milligrams, of pure Testosterone.

    Go look at our numbers from above again, by applying ester weight, the Enanthate is now 21.35, 18.3, 14.03, etc., Daily.

    Even if you haven't followed everything so far, understand this. 250mg Enanthate every three days will reach its peak concentration of actual Testosterone in your blood levels on approximately me the 18th day. It will be approximately 56mg. Suspension reaches its peak concentration level the same day and is boosted again daily. This is why no-ester, or short-chain ester compounds, shot every day, or every other day, are going to be active much sooner.

    Front-load a long-chain ester is just treating it like a short-chain ester. As you can see, with that sort of treatment regimen, your body will react sooner.

    I hope this helps as the long-winded explanation to your question.
    ---------------------------------
    done.

    Any questions, comments?

  34. #34
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    CONTINUED...


    Dizzy, you're close, but not quite there, yet, bud. Let's look at this. "After 5-7 days the mg amount of sustanon would drop considerably compared to enanthate I would guess. Making one injection of sus a week alot less desirable." Well, you'd guess wrong. Here's an entire lifecycle (approximately) of Enanthate, 250mg:
    35 30 23 20 17 17 15 12 10 9 8 8 6 5 4 4 4 3 3 2

    Here's Sustanon:
    39 29 24 20.5 16 13.5 12.5 11 9 8 7 7 5 5 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

    What you're looking at here are active mg's per day. Yes, the undecanoate ester in sustanon will keep it in the body a bit longer, but it's practically negligible what's there. Look at the first 5 days there. Yes, you have a slightly higher amount of test from the prop in sust in day one, but they even out pretty quickly. It isn't until the 6th and 7th day that there is even a noticeable disparagement between the two, and that is 3.5mg and 2.5mg, respectively. Do you think a person can tell a difference?

    I mean, are we seriously going to discuss the benefits of an extra 3.5mg in a single day? Not even every day, just one day a week. And starting in the second week, when you shoot again (assuming the one-shot-a-week scenario) you'll have an extra 4mg on the side of sustanon on that day. So, what you end up with is one day a week where Enanthate bests sust by 3.5mg and one day where susts bests Enanthate by 4mg. I hardly consider that meaningful when planning a cycle.

    Remember, also, the amount of time a substance is in your system is far more important than the amount of substance. So, if amount of substance is equal, the sustanon is superior here, as it will last longer in your system.

    So, since I almost feel like I'm defending the "evil" sustanon at this point, I decided to approximate the equivalent value of testosterone delivered after ester-weight compensation. On day one, the actual testosterone deliveredy from 250mg of sustanon was 39 (see above), after ester-weight compensation, it is 26.41mg. For enanthate, day 1 was 35mg, after ester-weight compensation it is 21.35mg.

    Let's look at some quick percentages. Sustanon maintained 67.7% of its weight in pure testosterone. Enanthate maintained 61% of its weight in pure testosterone. So, on average, sustanone delivers 6.7% more testosterone per mg than does Enanthate.

    No wonder people seem to do so well on cycles of sustanon, even newbies. It's in your system longer; good. It delivers almost mg. for mg. the same amount of ester daily, with a few days tipping the scales either way; good. It delivers almost 7% more test than enanthate after ester weight removal; good.

    I can't figure out why people are still using Enanthate, personally.

  35. #35
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    HERE'S THE END OF IT:


    lol, Damn, Dizzy, I didn't mean to make you think I was upset or anything.. I do hope you're not. You're not going to find a whole lot of literature on this subject. I do reference the Anabolics 2002 for some info on Enanthate release time. For some info on esters and ester weights, you'll find a great article by Bill Roberts at:
    http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...oid-esters.htm

    I was also hoping to get back to this before anyone posted. Here I was, patting myself on the back. I'd finally done all the calculations and answered the age-old question, "What's better, Enanthate, or Sust?" Well, I messed up. I arrogantly calculated day one of ester weight and decided that was all there was to it. I neglected to consider that the short-chain esters, the ones making sust appear so superior after ester weight removal, were exactly that, short-chain. They would be much around on day 10 or so. So, I went back and calculated a 10-day average for ester weight, to find out exactly where we stand on total amount of pure testosterone released by 250mg of each substance over 10 days. Here's what I found:
    Enanthate: obviously, doesn't change, single ester: 61%
    Sustanon : 10-day average, 63.3%

    2.1% is hardly enough to notice, the same as the minor 2.5mg and 3.5mg "advantages" Enanthate appeared to have on days 6 and 7. I think I'm right back where I started. Sustanon and Enanthate, there is no difference for applied purposes. After you average everything out, they are nearly identical. Yes, you can find 2% variances here and there, but my god, the difference between shooting in the morning and afternoon, and if you spill a drop or not will cause that much variance from shot-to-shot, regardless of the substance used.

    I don't see how anyone, after doing the research, or analyzing the research, could think either compound is superior.

  36. #36
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    Bump, I know it's a lot of info, but I was hoping someone would read it and reply.

  37. #37
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    great info leroy b- i never doubted the theory behind what dick was saying. It is a science!! but then again there a real world applications and from person to person and test study to test study in the subject i think everything changes to some degree. Great info once again but I am sticking to my feeling on running it eod for the much more better results. if i am paying for 250mg, gosh damm it i am going to get every penny's worth out of it!!

  38. #38
    Leroy Brown is offline Junior Member
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    Deja-vu, abstrack. We're doing this on another board at the same time.

  39. #39
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    hehe, yeah I was going to post your link but i said forget it. great info leroy!! I am about tired of the sus threads
    Last edited by abstrack; 02-16-2003 at 08:01 PM.

  40. #40
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    Damn!!

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