I know all about these both Tests, and wondering from your guys ' experience.. which one do you guys think is better cutting agent?
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I know all about these both Tests, and wondering from your guys ' experience.. which one do you guys think is better cutting agent?
never used it but id say PROP.
go with the prop...tried and true for lean gains however i have never used prop with goals to cut unless it has been with fina.
Prop
OG
anavar , winny , Eq............oh...there not choices........I never used prop and I have used Sus , but , what the drug profile says is......prop. I think Sus does not make you hold water as much as everyone says , but this is my experience. I'm sure you want some size...don't you ?
prop does not cause water retention, as in my previous cycle, I did not loose any muscle size, it only got better, maybe 1 or 2 pounds is all i lost, Could have been water, mind that I was runnung Deca and DBOL (WATER RETENTION with both)
WHATS THE MAIN BENEFIT USING SUST OVER PROP, given we use same quantities
500 mg PROP ro 2 * 250 mg SUST
IMO...you'll get mass and not much water with Sus..that's just my experience ....but in my cycle below I'm using liquidex to cut the retention of water from d-bol. Everyone is different.Quote:
Originally posted by Big_BoneZ
prop does not cause water retention, as in my previous cycle, I did not loose any muscle size, it only got better, maybe 1 or 2 pounds is all i lost, Could have been water, mind that I was runnung Deca and DBOL (WATER RETENTION with both)
WHATS THE MAIN BENEFIT USING SUST OVER PROP, given we use same quantities
500 mg PROP ro 2 * 250 mg SUST
I'd say prop, but here's something on sus that might help with your decision. Since you know your body and goals better then us. Hope it helps.
The proper use of Sustanon in a cycle by Squatdemon
One of the most misunderstood ideals when it comes to Sustanon is how to properly use it in a cycle. There is no wrong way, but there is a best way to administer proper dosages so you can fully benefit from the esters in Sustanon.
Sustanon was developed for the primary reason of hormone replacement, and because of the mix of esters most patients only needed one shot a month to keep their hormone levels balanced. Because of this design, the bodybuilder will not receive proper dosages at once or twice a week injections. Your blood levels will fluctuate up and down continually, which is not what you want while on a cycle. You want stable levels to give your body the best chance it can have to build plenty of muscle.
All test is the same, but once only the ester is removed. People that say test is test are wrong unless you are assuming that the ester has already been removed. I have had plenty of different results from the different tests I have used, as well as I am sure you have too. The secret to making sus work correctly, is timing the esters so the blood levels do not fluctuate.
I will assume that everyone knows how an ester works and why one is added to the parent testosterone. With sustanon, you have 4 esters:30mg of prop60mg of phenylprop60mg of isocaproate100mg of deconateCombined to give you 250mg. Now everyone knows for themselves how much test they should take due to previous cycles or no cycles at all. Lets take each ester and see how long they will stay active in the body. 30mg of prop--Prop needs to be injected at least every other day to get the full benefits of the test. I think every third day is a little too long to wait, although some people may disagree. Now lets say you are doing a prop only cycle and injecting 30mg twice a week. You can see already that is a waste of gear. If you inject 30mg of prop twice a week you are totally wasting your time. You will NOT grow off of this, so you can basically take sus and knock it down to 220mg an amp if you are injecting once or twice a week. 60 mg of phenylprop--Phenylprop is not that much different than prop. You can get away with injecting the phenylprop ester every third day. Anyone that has taken nandrolone with a phenylprop ester knows that it is shorter acting and must be injected twice a week (for example, getwoods powder). If injected twice a week, then lets even cushion the amount, you will have all 120 mg in one week.
To recap, so far this is what you get the first week---180 mg of test in your system. If you ask me that was a waste of two amps. That is barely enough to suppress the axis, and that is about all you will have happen if you inject 180mg of test per week. Now lets look at the longer acting esters in sus. 60mg of Isocaproate--Isocaproate will give you a duration of about a week before it is let go. This is not bad, but at 60 mg you are still not getting enough test to make it worth the time. 100mg of Deconate--Here is the daddy of the four esters. This is the same ester that is used in Decca-Durabolin. The deconate ester should really average out at 2 weeks, but has been said to last up to 3.This ester was added at a 100mg dose to balance out the quicker acting esters used in sustanon.
If we review one more time, we can see roughly how much test we will have in our body per week when we use sus, and hopefully you can see it is very low. You can pretty much take out the prop and phenylprop until about week 3 or 4, because once the other esters release the test and it gets time to build up in the system, the prop and phenylprop is useless. Not until around week six are you going to get your test levels high enough to do any good, and if you are on a 10 week cycle and start tapering week 8, then your test have been only relatively high for about 2-3 weeks. Call me crazy, but that is not at all what I want in a cycle. Every test cycle should be started high to hit those receptors hard, and I don’t even taper at the end (but that is a different story).
The numbers that BIGDAWG and I worked on basically show that your test levels will never at one time be stable for more that a couple of weeks. Why do you think that people say they have less bloat on sus and less sides. There is so little of the short acting test in your system at one time that it is impossible to get any bloat or side effects at all. So you ask, well what is the best way to take sus then? First I would answer don’t buy it. If you really want to use a 4 blend test then buy some of the old omna (not the new ones), they have more shorter acting tests in them and the blood levels will stay more equal.
If you don’t believe me, ask anyone that has used the old omna and they will tell you they got quite a bit of bloat from it. Reason being is the shorter acting esters in the omna build up your blood levels quicker, hence you have the bloat factor. If someone doesn’t like my first answer, then I will give them a second, "inject the sus everyday or at the least every other day." I usually get the "wholly shit, that’s crazy!!!" answer. I usually tell them back, no its not crazy, its science. The actual science of sus combined with a bodybuilders needs equal injecting every day.
People seem to forget about the esters and think they are injecting all of 1750mg each week and getting every mg of it. Trust me folks, I am not talking about injecting 7 amps a week for 10 weeks, I am suggesting injecting an amp a day for 3 weeks, and letting the esters do their work after that. When you crunch the numbers, for the first two weeks you are really only getting the prop, phenylprop, and a little of the isocaproate. Maybe about 700-750 mg for the first two weeks, and for weeks after that when all of the isocaproate and deconate kick in you will stay around 600-800mg for weeks following the first couple. You have a perfect taper, if you are into that, and stable test levels. If you go to eod, it will vary a bit, but not enough to really make too much of a difference.
Start off the cycle with 5 weeks of dbol while using the sus, and when you are done with the sustanon, then immediately start injecting two anabolics like eq and decca, or decca and primo/winny. This is a cycle that a lot of the pros are using called front end loading with an anabolic taper. I guinea pigged this idea when BIGDAWG and I were discussing it many months back, and damn it was a really good cycle. Not as good as 1000mg of aratest a week, but still a pretty good cycle. I have cycled sus/omna both ways, and trained relatively the same with the same kind of diet. The difference in the two cycles were like night and day, about a 15-17 pound difference, and two amps of omna a week was my first cycle too. You know, the one you are supposed to grow the most off of because of the virgin receptors. So test may be test, but you will not get the same results from every ester out there if you don’t know how to time them. If you are thinking of a sus/omna cycle, give this a try. I promise you will not be disappointed, and you just may thank me and DAWG later......peace.
JohnnyB
Johny
thanks for this post, I read it yesterday when it was postedby
Enrage in my previous post. Very informative.
According to other posts following this post, he also mentioned how you need to take it ED to have normal test levels. that makes sense to shoot ED,
is ther any other Advantages that Test Isocaproate, phenylprop, and Decanoate have over PROP alone, if ur looking to cut?
Try are just longer acting esters, one of them take 3 weeks or so to clear the system. That's why you start clomid 3 weeks after last injection. For cutting I'd go with prop, you'll get less water retention and you can start clomid 3 day after last injestion.Quote:
Originally posted by Big_BoneZ
Johny
thanks for this post, I read it yesterday when it was postedby
Enrage in my previous post. Very informative.
According to other posts following this post, he also mentioned how you need to take it ED to have normal test levels. that makes sense to shoot ED,
is ther any other Advantages that Test Isocaproate, phenylprop, and Decanoate have over PROP alone, if ur looking to cut?
JohnnyB
IMO, water retention is same w/either prop or sust. Test is test. Water retention comes from test aromatizing into estrogen, it has little or nothing to do with length of ester.