How many f*cking times!!! Grow into your dose!!

**Swifto** · 10-24-2010, 01:20 PM

HOW MANY F*CKING TIMES!!! GROW INTO YOUR DOSE!!

Lately, I've been getting PM's of member's giving me their stats of 170lbs, 185lbs, 200lbs, 220lbs etc... Some of the guys UNDER 200lbs are using 750-1000mg/wk Testosterone .

Thats radiculas...

If your still gaining off of 250-500mg/wk Test Enan when your cycle is coming to an end, stick with that dose next. Even if your gains have slowed, stick with the dose.

A 1st cycle doesn't have to be 500mg/wk.

A 2nd cycle doesn't HAVE to be 750mg/wk.

A 3rd cycle doesn't HAVE to be 1g/wk... And so on.

The TOTAL ANDROGEN AMOUNT also needs to be taken into account. Not just exogenous testosterone. 500mg/wk Test Enan + 400mg/wk Deca = 900mg/wk total AAS.

There are far too many members here on high doses and not growing into the dose.

Large doses cause more problems, thats a fact. Increased BP, lipid problems, increase RBC, added liver and kidney stress, etc...

I understand doses slow in a cycle. Thats due to a number of reasons and mechanisms. Not changing the training protocol, not increasing kals, changes in AR coactivators and corepressor's, myostatin, we dont know is the answer fully to why gains stop or slow yet.

So grow INTO your dose. Dont be afraid to use the same dose again and again until you have added a fair amount of LBM, then think about adding additional compounds or increasing the dose.

**Swifto** · 10-24-2010, 01:27 PM

As an example (mistake I made) I used too larger dose when I was 19 years old.

I used 500mg/wk for my first and second. I used AAS far too early (around 180lbs) and got to around 200lbs after 2 cycles.

I then only played with compounds alone to see what side effects I got. I wouldn't count them as cycles per se.

My last cycle was 350mg/wk Test Prop and Dbol 20mg/ED for about 16 weeks. Got to around 220lbs 5"11 10-12% with my diet/training in order.

So I didnt NEED 500mg/wk at all.

350mg/wk Test was plenty and I was 20lbs heavier than I ever was using 500mg/wk.

**kleaver** · 10-24-2010, 01:33 PM

you think 180 was far too early for aas?

**Ashop** · 10-24-2010, 01:38 PM

Good post. My 1st early cycles were only 250mg wk of SUST and I gained like crazy.

**boyka** · 10-24-2010, 01:48 PM

I asked before about dosing 350mg/w Test E to keep more muscle while cutting some fat, and got answers like this: " It's not worth to shut down your natty test for that low dose...
So you Swifto, do you think it's good idea to run 350mg of Test E/w to keep more muscle, and maybe gain LBM before summer?

**AlphaMaleDawg** · 10-24-2010, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by kleaver

you think 180 was far too early for aas?

it all depends on genetics. My natural genetic limit was 180 and I'm two inches shorter than him (5'9)

and great post swifto

**40plusnewbie** · 10-24-2010, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

HOW MANY F*CKING TIMES!!! GROW INTO YOUR DOSE!!

Lately, I've been getting PM's of member's giving me their stats of 170lbs, 185lbs, 200lbs, 220lbs etc... Some of the guys UNDER 200lbs are using 750-1000mg/wk Testosterone .

Thats radiculas...

Think that's bad, I was at my local nutrition shop Friday shooting the breeze with the owner and some other guys and some kid comes in while we were talking to some lady that was competing yesterday. After he left the owner told me he's 16 and the owner refused to sell him any pro-hormones and now "some guy" (not sure on the details) hooked him up with steroids and he's on test, maybe something else. 16 yrs old. His eyes were also bloodshot and he had a dumb grin on his face... if you get what I mean.

**vettewreck** · 10-24-2010, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

A 2nd cycle doesn't HAVE to be 750mg/wk.

A 3rd cycle doesn't HAVE to be 1g/wk... And so on.

Good point. My very first cycle ever was Sus 250mg/wk. And while I do usually recommend 500mg/wk test, its not a must. I used 500mg/wk for probably 4 or 5 times before ever even bumping to 750mg.

**beachbum11** · 10-24-2010, 03:21 PM

I hope you aren't referring to me on this post, because you misread my post...or I didn't explain it clear enough, but I said I up'd to 750 after no gains just to see if it worked. I started sust at 250 on first cycle and a few after that, and ran 375 for the longest time. I like to run test at 4-500 max.

**BOBfromfightclub** · 10-24-2010, 03:44 PM

SO should some one start @ 350mg/week for there first cycle?

**CMB** · 10-24-2010, 03:50 PM

I started at 400mgs for my first cycle.

250mgs would have done very little for me...

**BOBfromfightclub** · 10-24-2010, 03:55 PM

I might start @2,500mg Daily.

**TopDogUK** · 10-24-2010, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by BOBfromfightclub

SO should some one start @ 350mg/week for there first cycle?

Its down to the user and how patient they are, If your patient then go with that see how you react? you could react well to it and gain as much as if you were pinning 500mgs a week anyway. If you know your gear is legit and you dont gain as well as you should then for your second cycle up it to 500mgs or something...

My first cycle is at Test E @ 500mgs a week, looking around on the net 400-500mgs a week is an acceptable dose for a beginner, So i went with that as there had been a lot of feedback from people who ran 500mgs a week, experienced little sides and gained well. I wont be upping the dose on my cycles until the gains begin to slow.

Also your wasting money if your using more than you need to... That money wasted could go towards your second cycle or other sups.

Good topic by Swifto.

**Reed** · 10-24-2010, 06:39 PM

Not only total androgen amount but different compounds have different anabolic /androgenic ratios.

**GetSwole83** · 10-24-2010, 06:56 PM

Good topic. Should be a sticky.

**millionairemurph** · 10-25-2010, 12:30 AM

i agree, i have grown just fine on "low" doses, even when i have used much higher doses in the past. I think some guys think that their dosing always has to go up. Thats a dangerous way to think.
i have had great results with 175mg prop a WEEK with one other compound at a mild dose.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by vettewreck

Good point. My very first cycle ever was Sus 250mg/wk. And while I do usually recommend 500mg/wk test, its not a must. I used 500mg/wk for probably 4 or 5 times before ever even bumping to 750mg.

Exactly.

Well done.

Originally Posted by beachbum11

I hope you aren't referring to me on this post, because you misread my post...or I didn't explain it clear enough, but I said I up'd to 750 after no gains just to see if it worked. I started sust at 250 on first cycle and a few after that, and ran 375 for the longest time. I like to run test at 4-500 max.

I'm not, no.

Not singling you out, I get a lot of PM's about stuff like this, not to mention threads in this section.

500mg/wk seems to be the starting dose when 250-350mg/wk is absolutely fine for a number of successive cycles.

Originally Posted by BOBfromfightclub

SO should some one start @ 350mg/week for there first cycle?

Yes, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Reed

Not only total androgen amount but different compounds have different anabolic/androgenic ratios.

Excellent point mate.

**Hazard** · 10-25-2010, 09:52 AM

My test dosage hasn't gone over 750mg's yet and i'm 250lbs..... I have experimented with higher tren dosages and such but for the most part..... I use mainly just test. When I throw tren in..... I lower the test dosage and up the tren. Typically..... I don't go over 1500mg's total on all my compounds.

~Haz~

**dec11** · 10-25-2010, 10:49 AM

just to re-iterate swifto's point, ive cycled test at 500, 600, 750, 800mg's plus what ever dbol , deca etc i used at the same time. i havent cycled since may and i am gaining more than i ever did on those doses with a simple trt of 250mg pw test and 3iu's gh (just started gh 1.5 months ago). reason being? i can eat more and i havent shitty sides like back pumps, blood pressure etc restricting my training. think guys, ave male produces 70mg test per week, 250pw supplementation is ALOT more than that. as always being stated, look at your diet, rest and training, monster doses are not required for casual users.

now listen up or he'll be round your gaff with a gallon of petrol and a chainsaw lol

**marcus300** · 10-25-2010, 11:02 AM

Some excellent points Swifto,

Ive got a couple of IFBB pro friends and they are completely different with their approach to cycling, one of them use's very little and takes alot of time off and the other use's alot of aas and never comes off just coast's with a low dose inbetween cycles. The guy who uses alot doesnt respond with low amounts but the other guys does. Its all about listening to your own body and adjusting to how it grows, there is no need to use higher amounts of aas if your still gaining with low to moderate dose, there are also many different methods of cycling what will springboard you into new growth without using higher amounts, at all times stay safe and healthy.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by dec11

just to re-iterate swifto's point, ive cycled test at 500, 600, 750, 800mg's plus what ever dbol , deca etc i used at the same time. i havent cycled since may and i am gaining more than i ever did on those doses with a simple trt of 250mg pw test and 3iu's gh (just started gh 1.5 months ago). reason being? i can eat more and i havent shitty sides like back pumps, blood pressure etc restricting my training. think guys, ave male produces 70mg test per week, 250pw supplementation is ALOT more than that. as always being stated, look at your diet, rest and training, monster doses are not required for casual users.

now listen up or he'll be round your gaff with a gallon of petrol and a chainsaw lol

Exactly.

Another example similar to my case.

I made excellent gains in between cycles and then on 350mg/wk and a small dose of Dbol. I was still gaining infact.

Originally Posted by marcus300

Some excellent points Swifto,

Ive got a couple of IFBB pro friends and they are completely different with their approach to cycling, one of them use's very little and takes alot of time off and the other use's alot of aas and never comes off just coast's with a low dose inbetween cycles. The guy who uses alot doesnt respond with low amounts but the other guys does. Its all about listening to your own body and adjusting to how it grows, there is no need to use higher amounts of aas if your still gaining with low to moderate dose, there are also many different methods of cycling what will springboard you into new growth without using higher amounts, at all times stay safe and healthy.

Glad you commented big fella.

I understand you cannot use the same doses over and over again, but the rate in which user's increase their dose is too much here and at a lot of boards.

Food is the most important factor here, not amount of AAS.

Originally Posted by Hazard

My test dosage hasn't gone over 750mg's yet and i'm 250lbs..... I have experimented with higher tren dosages and such but for the most part..... I use mainly just test. When I throw tren in..... I lower the test dosage and up the tren. Typically..... I don't go over 1500mg's total on all my compounds.

~Haz~

Thanks Haz.

At 250lbs I can see doses are going to go up.

Ecellent point about using specific compounds as your primary anabolic , reducing the other's if their simply not needed at massive doses.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 11:25 AM

I also think 250mg/wk Test for a first cycle is acceptable and a decent enough dose to gain LBM, reduce fat, etc... Or introductory dose to AAS.

250mg/wk will put the majority of user's around 950-1400ng/dl, thats around (or higher) than most 17-20 year old's total testosterone amount and they grow like weeds.

wk 1-12 Test Enan 250mg/wk
wk 1-5 Dbol 20mg/ED OR Tbol 40mg/ED
*Aromasin 10mg/EOD
*HCG 250ius 2x/wk

I wish I did the above as a first cycle, not the staple of 500mg/wk.

**The Wolfman** · 10-25-2010, 11:30 AM

Fair enough, always build up from lower dosages.
But some people actually need alot bigger dosages then some others to grow (genetics)

I have a friend, a big guy. Very strong, very big. All he did while cutting was running 250mg of test, he actually gained a little on all his bodyparts, except waist which he reduced significantly.

Now, NOBODY else I know can do anything close to this. I wast just trying to make a point of genetics

**marcus300** · 10-25-2010, 11:31 AM

Ive got a study somewhere swifto what shows the differences regarding dose vs muscle building and if i remember right it states 300mgs is the minimum to use to see benefits, i will see if i can locate it and send it to you.

I agree, to many people increase the dose when its not needed, when all they need to do is increase their calories to suit their new muscle mass, food is the key

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by The Wolfman

Fair enough, always build up from lower dosages.
But some people actually need alot bigger dosages then some others to grow (genetics)

I have a friend, a big guy. Very strong, very big. All he did while cutting was running 250mg of test, he actually gained a little on all his bodyparts, except waist which he reduced significantly.

Now, NOBODY else I know can do anything close to this. I wast just trying to make a point of genetics

Yeah, genetics are key.

Some NEED more, but 80% of the time their diets or training is off.

Originally Posted by marcus300

Ive got a study somewhere swifto what shows the differences regarding dose vs muscle building and if i remember right it states 300mgs is the minimum to use to see benefits, i will see if i can locate it and send it to you.

I agree, to many people increase the dose when its not needed, when all they need to do is increase their calories to suit their new muscle mass, food is the key

D7M and I talked about this once, but I dont see how thats possible seeing as 250mg/wk exogenous T will put TT levels over 1000ng/dl. Thats like arguing you cant gain on anything less than a natural total T amount of 1000ng/dl, which is utter garbage.

**The Wolfman** · 10-25-2010, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Yeah, genetics are key.

Some NEED more, but 80% of the time their diets or training is off.

I agree!

**marcus300** · 10-25-2010, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Yeah, genetics are key.

Some NEED more, but 80% of the time their diets or training is off.

D7M and I talked about this once, but I dont see how thats possible seeing as 250mg/wk exogenous T will put TT levels over 1000ng/dl. Thats like arguing you cant gain on anything less than a natural total T amount of 1000ng/dl, which is utter garbage.

Well converting that into muscle growth is another matter, in some people they need to be in the higher range even when they first start off, but from my experience I would say 400mgs is a good starting dose which will reward you with some decent gains. I also think there is enough people around these kind of fourms what will give good feedback on this matter, to be honest i dont really know where this 500mgs per wk thing came from but it does seem to of caught on lol... let me see if i can find this study because its that long ago i might not be remembering it correctly but i do remember it made interesting reading.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 11:48 AM

I cant be bothered to type it ALL out, but in this study, LBM increased by "2.9kg" (DEXA) over 16 weeks at 125mg/wk exogenous T. "3.4kg" (underwater weighing) as shown in table 3.

Thigh volume increased from "890" to "966" a change of "56" (ANOVA) points in the 125mg/wk group.

Quad volume increased from "508" to "566" a change of "21" (ANOVA) points in the 125mg/wk group.

The only important hormone that didnt really go up in the 125mg/wk group was IGF-1. It actually went down. It increases in the 300mg/wk and 600mg/wk groups respectively.

However, its clear to see gains were made on 125mg/wk even though IGF-1 didnt go up.

**marcus300** · 10-25-2010, 12:01 PM

Yes that's the study what i was referring to, there was only 2 groups what i would class as significant at muscle building and that was the 300mgs and the 600mgs. The jump from 2.9kgs to 5.2kg (11.4lbs) when using 300mgs is far more significant with the gains us bodybuilders would look for and for the 600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase sure does tell you that testosterone works lol. But saying that ive had great experiences with 125mgs (hrt dose) but i wouldnt say I built anything but more maintained.

**shennen** · 10-25-2010, 12:11 PM

Hey guys, good discussion. I've been readin a lot about this lately, as my first cycle was one to remember for sure.
I stupidly gave myself 1.5g of sust for five weeks, then 600 for the last seven. Im on my fifth day of pct now.
Im just trying to plan for my next cycle as I want it to be perfectly prepared and no regrets. Im amazed I didn't get injured on that much tbh. Anyway, what the f will my next dose be?

Second cycle so id like to keep it just test, maybe winny or dbol , but would say 500mg/wk of say test c be ineffective because I've already touched so high on my last?

Hope this isn't off topic, know its kinda borderline. Thanks.

**BOBfromfightclub** · 10-25-2010, 12:33 PM

is 250mg test e to little? I actually dont want to blow up to massive size. I just want a boost, my diet and training is what im focusing on.

I bought 2 10ml vials of test e. 250mg/ml. I was planing on 500mg for 10 weeks but if i did 250mg a week then I could have 2 cycles...

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by BOBfromfightclub

is 250mg test e to little? I actually dont want to blow up to massive size. I just want a boost, my diet and training is what im focusing on.

I bought 2 10ml vials of test e. 250mg/ml. I was planing on 500mg for 10 weeks but if i did 250mg a week then I could have 2 cycles...

My opinion my differ from others, but 250mg/wk is fine IMHO.

I'd start on that dose and if you gain, stay there, if your gains slow or stop after a while, increase the dose slightly.

***D7M*** · 10-25-2010, 01:10 PM

I used to cruise at 250mg/wk.

And while there's several factors, I just never felt like I was able to add muscle at that dose.

It only helped me maintain what I already had.

That said, studies are all well and good (and that study Marcus posted is the same one I was referring to when we talked about this before Swifto)

but nothing will ever beat real life experience in this game.

so if someone can grow off 250mg/wk then, hell, have at it!

There's absolutely no need to start at a higher dose, when a lower dose (=less sides) will do just fine for a novice.

***D7M*** · 10-25-2010, 01:11 PM

Oh, and great thread, Swifto.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Yes that's the study what i was referring to, there was only 2 groups what i would class as significant at muscle building and that was the 300mgs and the 600mgs. The jump from 2.9kgs to 5.2kg (11.4lbs) when using 300mgs is far more significant with the gains us bodybuilders would look for and for the 600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase sure does tell you that testosterone works lol. But saying that ive had great experiences with 125mgs (hrt dose) but i wouldnt say I built anything but more maintained.

250-300mg/wk for a bodybuilder is the minimum for additional gains IMHO. But even the 125mg/wk Test group gained roughly 7.5lbs. Thats not a bad result on a measly 125mg/wk.

Originally Posted by shennen

Hey guys, good discussion. I've been readin a lot about this lately, as my first cycle was one to remember for sure.
I stupidly gave myself 1.5g of sust for five weeks, then 600 for the last seven. Im on my fifth day of pct now.
Im just trying to plan for my next cycle as I want it to be perfectly prepared and no regrets. Im amazed I didn't get injured on that much tbh. Anyway, what the f will my next dose be?

Second cycle so id like to keep it just test, maybe winny or dbol , but would say 500mg/wk of say test c be ineffective because I've already touched so high on my last?

Hope this isn't off topic, know its kinda borderline. Thanks.

No, of course not.

Look at the example I gave and other examples in this thread. Just because you have tocuhed a certain dose, it doesnt mean your receptors wont respond to smaller doses.

At 500mg/wk I gained a fair amount of LBM and got to 200lbs. Didnt cycle properly again for a while, then used 350mg/wk and got upto around 220lbs. 20lbs heavier than I was at 500mg/wk.

I just want to be clear that larger doses DO MEAN more gains. Thats proved by the study I just posted, but for 80-90% of us that havent totally levelled out using diet and training. I mean, properly levelled out (IFBB), then additional doses and compounds and genetics play a much more important role. However, thats not applicable to the vast majority of user's/members here and most other forums.

**Swifto** · 10-25-2010, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Yes that's the study what i was referring to, there was only 2 groups what i would class as significant at muscle building and that was the 300mgs and the 600mgs. The jump from 2.9kgs to 5.2kg (11.4lbs) when using 300mgs is far more significant with the gains us bodybuilders would look for and for the 600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase sure does tell you that testosterone works lol. But saying that ive had great experiences with 125mgs (hrt dose) but i wouldnt say I built anything but more maintained.

Ah... I see what you mean now.

This study is a good one, full of information. I often use this sole study for a wise range of facts pertaining to it.

Originally Posted by D7M

I used to cruise at 250mg/wk.

And while there's several factors, I just never felt like I was able to add muscle at that dose.

It only helped me maintain what I already had.

That said, studies are all well and good (and that study Marcus posted is the same one I was referring to when we talked about this before Swifto)

but nothing will ever beat real life experience in this game.

so if someone can grow off 250mg/wk then, hell, have at it!

There's absolutely no need to start at a higher dose, when a lower dose (=less sides) will do just fine for a novice.

Originally Posted by D7M

Oh, and great thread, Swifto.

Cheers mate. Thought it was needed.

**BOBfromfightclub** · 10-25-2010, 05:25 PM

Ive just gone through allot of trouble getting the gear and would hate to waste a cycle. but If i can gain with only 250mg that would be awesome! less sides i would assume.

**tembe** · 10-25-2010, 10:45 PM

i think alot of inexperienced members tend to increase the dosage to get better results without first perfecting there diet and training regime..

i was guilty of this myself and regret jumping my dosage in my last cycle...

my next planned cycle will be at a much lower dose but i now feel i have perfected dieting..and i feel i am now growing at a much more better, stable rate..

imho i believe that inexperienced people do not truly understand dieting before jumping into AAS as they believe they will grow perfectly just with there normal diet and with the introduction of AAS...

so many things can be altered before jumping your dosage to increase muscle mass like nutrient timing, macros and such

just my $0.02

**inevitable** · 10-25-2010, 11:31 PM

wow, great thread everyone. I never understand why newbie's want to start out at 750mg+??? i always told people 500mg/wk 12-15 for a first cycle is good. As of recently, it did make me wonder how "lower" doses would compare to the "average." I am gearing up for a 20wker and might just keep it at 300mg/wk and see how it goes? granted I have var, proviron , drol, and winny i can use if need be but.. I truly think i am going to give the lower dose a shot. Great thread again everyone!

**Swifto** · 10-26-2010, 01:59 AM

Originally Posted by tembe

i think alot of inexperienced members tend to increase the dosage to get better results without first perfecting there diet and training regime..

i was guilty of this myself and regret jumping my dosage in my last cycle...

my next planned cycle will be at a much lower dose but i now feel i have perfected dieting..and i feel i am now growing at a much more better, stable rate..

imho i believe that inexperienced people do not truly understand dieting before jumping into AAS as they believe they will grow perfectly just with there normal diet and with the introduction of AAS...

so many things can be altered before jumping your dosage to increase muscle mass like nutrient timing, macros and such

just my $0.02

Many dont increase kals as they gain and wonder why gains in LBM, strength, overall mass, stop dead.

As Marcus once told me, a 13 stone man has to eat like a 13 stone man, a 14 stone man has to eat like a 14 stone man, 15 stone, 16 stone etc... All the time increasing kals above the new maintenence levels to consistanly gain.

I have found a lot dont do this.

If the scales go up, so should the amount of food your consuming, that may even be on a weekly basis.