Nolva or Clomid for post cycle therapy

[Ozzy]

I grabbed this from Juice Authority on Anabolics Anonymous. I'm starting to take a long hard look at the use of liquidex/arimidex for an anti-e during cycle for a couple of reasons......cholesterol/estrogen creating and estrogen binding. Also the more I research , the more I wonder if nolva would be better than clomid as post cycle therapy .




I would also suggest running Nolvadex during your cycle to prevent the effects of estrogen in the body. It can aid in preventing edema, gyno, and female pattern fat distribution, all of which might occur when your estrogen levels are too high.

To prevent estrogenic side effects normally 10-20 mg/day are sufficient, a dosage which also keeps low the risk of reducing the effect of simultaneously-taken AS. Nolva does NOT inhibit gains. Arimidex, it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Always start with Arimidex, but have nolvadex on hand.

Nolvadex can and will act as a psuedo-estrogen. Arimidex will keep your aromatose activity down to a minimum. Nolva can take the place for estrogenic activities for cholesterol. Which is good!

You can also wait until you have any signs of gyno and then take Nolvadex 20mg's in the morning and 20mg's in the evening for two weeks and continue to take it at 10mg's per day for the remainder of cycle.

Here's an article the summarizes all of the above points and studies:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
_________________
The Juice is Loose!

[painintheazz]

Bump, good read.

Pain

[ichabodcrane]

I will just add something to that report, and I have stated this before with tons of clinical studies proving this as well. Nolvadex is just as bad on the eyes if not WORSE than clomid. Go to medline, pubmed, ovid etc. and do the searches. You will come up with many more articles regarding nolva and oculotoxicity. I(we, a group) had to present a systematic review on nolva and oculotoxicity. We came up with tons of clinical reviews showing visual problems using nolva. So, because nolva and clomid are similar in structure, one could probably assume they both have potential for causing oculotoxicity. Nolva has been more extensively studied as well. Most of the research shows this for long term use, and was done in women with metastatic cancer as well. So where am I going? These women were probably on many other meds as well (corticos-known to cause cataracts etc) which could attribute to the oculotox. But the literature is out there, assuming nolva is safer on the eyes than clomid is not correct. Do the searches and you will see for yourself. But, I think short runs to be the safest (3-4 weeks). These drugs make micro-deposits in the macula, which seems permanent. Some people will present with visual problems, some will not.

[zzo18]

I want to keep watching this...good post...bump!

[Ozzy]

^

[Magicz]

bump

[Solrock]

BUMP

Ozzy... you state that Arimidex will mess up cholesterol levels. Couldn't this be resolved by taking Femara in place of Arimidex?

[Rickson]

Try both and I think most will find for short term recovery Clomid is the better choice.

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Solrock
BUMP

Ozzy... you state that Arimidex will mess up cholesterol levels. Couldn't this be resolved by taking Femara in place of Arimidex?

Well....this came from Juice Authority on another board and I'm learning more about the side of anti-e's and I'm not to sure if femara is any better as far as cholesterol levels go. I'll have to research this

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Rickson
Try both and I think most will find for short term recovery Clomid is the better choice.

What's your opinion of this idea........
Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

[Terinox]

All that shit about it affecting the eyes scares the shit out of me!!! How bad is it REALLY to a body builder? And for the amount we use (assuming you did the normal routine 300/100/50)? It can't make you blind can it?

[Rickson]

I think that is exactly right Ozzy. Before clomid I used to use nolvadex to recover from a cycle and it always took a lot longer then with clomid. Some people feel the sides of clomid much more than others though and that can make Nolvadex a good option.

[redrumkev]

If I am running adex .5mg a day for a 16 week cycle. I will start my clomid or nolvadex post cycle. Should I run the adex along with the clmoid or nolvadex? Also can I run half the normal clomid and half the normal nolvadex and get the best of both worlds, or is it better to just run one at the "normal" levels?

[Vice]

I'm taking omnadren @ 500 for 10 weeks, and I only have nolvadex on hand at the moment, I'm expecting some clomid before my 10 weeks is up, but if I'm not able to get my hands on it, can i just use the nolva?
when and how long should I run it for? thanks.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by Terinox
All that shit about it affecting the eyes scares the shit out of me!!! How bad is it REALLY to a body builder? And for the amount we use (assuming you did the normal routine 300/100/50)? It can't make you blind can it?

OK- clomid has been known to cause visual disturbances. I myself get them when on clomid. These 99% of the time go away after you stop clomid therapy. And if you don't get these visual disturbances you have nothing to worry about. If you do get visual disturbances take clomid before going to bed- or better yet switch to nolvadex post cycle.

I like taking nolvadex and clomid post cycle. There have been 10 page threads by the most knowledgable memebers on the net that i have seen and no concensus was reached. Basically you need to try them both and see what you like better or simply take a combination of the 2.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by redrumkev
If I am running adex .5mg a day for a 16 week cycle. I will start my clomid or nolvadex post cycle. Should I run the adex along with the clmoid or nolvadex? Also can I run half the normal clomid and half the normal nolvadex and get the best of both worlds, or is it better to just run one at the "normal" levels?

Run arimidex along with your clomid or nolvadex post cycle. This will help keep estrogen levels in check post-cycle and in doing so will assist in post-cycle recovery. Also, many feel that by running an estrogen inhibitor like arimidex you will reduce hormone fluctuations that you get post cycle- and thereby you will reduce your acne.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by Solrock
BUMP

Ozzy... you state that Arimidex will mess up cholesterol levels. Couldn't this be resolved by taking Femara in place of Arimidex?

Both Arimidex and Femara have a negative impact on your lipid profile. But Aromasin does not and neither does nolvadex or proviron . Femara and Arimidex are slightly more potent anti-es though.

Many steroids also hurt your lipid profile, which is one of the more dangerous and less known sides of steroid use .

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by Vice
I'm taking omnadren @ 500 for 10 weeks, and I only have nolvadex on hand at the moment, I'm expecting some clomid before my 10 weeks is up, but if I'm not able to get my hands on it, can i just use the nolva?
when and how long should I run it for? thanks.

If you use nolva run it the same as clomid. Clomid 50mg = Nolva 20mg.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

This was posted by DrJMW at Anabolic Science.

Disadvantage of Femara and Arimidex --Good Read

Effect of letrozole on the lipid profile in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.
Eur J Cancer 2001 Aug;37(12):1510-3 (ISSN: 0959-8049)
Elisaf MS; Bairaktari ET; Nicolaides C; Kakaidi B; Tzallas CS; Katsaraki A; Pavlidis NA
Department of Internal Medicine, Medical School, University of Ioannina, GR 451 10 Ioannina, Greece. [email protected].
Hormonal therapy plays a central role in the overall treatment of breast cancer. Aromatase inhibitors can inhibit the aromatase enzyme system resulting in a reduction of oestrogens. Letrozole is a non-steroidal aromatase inhibitor that effectively blocks aromatase activity without interfering with adrenal steroid biosynthesis. The drug can significantly reduce the levels of plasma oestrogens, which remain suppressed throughout the treatment. Data are scarce concerning the influence of these drugs on serum lipid levels. In the present study, we evaluated the effects of letrozole on the serum lipid profile in postmenopausal women with breast cancer. A total of 20 patients with breast cancer were treated with letrozole, 2.5 mg once daily. After an overnight fast, serum lipid parameters (total cholesterol, high density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, triglycerides, apolipoproteins A1, B and E and lipoprotein (a)) were measured before treatment and at 8 and 16 weeks afterwards. A significant increase in total cholesterol (P=0.05), LDL cholesterol (P<0.01) and apolipoprotein B levels (P=0.05) in the serum, as well as in the atherogenic risk ratios total cholesterol/HDL cholesterol (P<0.005) and LDL cholesterol/HDL cholesterol (P<0.005) was noticed after letrozole treatment. We conclude that letrozole administration in postmenopausal women with breast cancer has an unfavourable effect on the serum lipid profile.

NOTE: Arimidex also negatively affects the lipid profile--I do not have the study. Aromasin is the safest, most effective antiestrogen out there.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

My personal experience with femara, my lipids went from good to bad. To the point my Dr. wanted to put me on a cholesterol meds. It messes with your sex drive also, if you use to much. I think you should have it on hand incase of gyno, take it until the gynos taken care of, but stop the AAS also. Try lower doses next time. JMO

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by SGFuryZ


I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying that running an anti-aromatase like Proviron throughout the entire cycle will hinder gains? I ran 50mg/day with my 10-week Enanthate /D-bol cycle and gained 27lbs. Could I have gained more without the Proviron (or maybe a lower dose, like 25mg/day?)? Or is the above-mentioned statement advising against running Proviron AND Nolvadex together throughout the cycle?

Actually proviron will help with gains. It helps unbind test. I look for some info on this.

JohnnyB

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by JohnnyB
Actually proviron will help with gains. It helps unbind test. I look for some info on this.

JohnnyB

Yeah that's right. Proviron is a weak androgen which increases your gains by allowing you to have more unbinded test in your system.

[blakyr]

bump... more people should read this so there are less questions about it

[JDawg1536]

OK- clomid has been known to cause visual disturbances. I myself get them when on clomid. These 99% of the time go away after you stop clomid therapy. And if you don't get these visual disturbances you have nothing to worry about. If you do get visual disturbances take clomid before going to bed- or better yet switch to nolvadex post cycle.

Actually, I heard from a doctor that if you get vision problems from clomid you should stop using immediately. Im by far no expert on the subject, just adding my .02 cents.

[JDawg1536]

oh yeah, and by the way Ozzy, you gotta change that avatar! every time o look out it it just freaks me out and scares the shit out of me!

[leelee_69]

Nolva does NOT inhibit gains. Arimidex , it is an anti-e. It stops aromatation. Problem is, it will mess up your cholesterol levels.

Arimidex = To Prevent Estrogen Creation

Nolvadex = To Stop Estrogen from Binding

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex.

So which is it? Will running nolvadex inhibit gains or not

This came up in my research so I'm bumping it up.

[TheUsed]

I have read every post in this thread but yall have yet to mention where i can find them. WHERE!?

I have been advised to take Nolva during my cycle at 10mg ed and then at pct take both nolva and clomid but up the nolva to 20mg ed.

I am currently studying and becoming more familar with all terms and effects but when exactly is PCT? Is it the day after i take my last dose or do i wait a few days? Ya'll all seem very familar with this subject so i am hoping yall can help me out a little. My cycle would consist of

Contents:
testosterone 250 mg
benzyl alchohol 3%
benzyl benzoate 10%

1 mL twice a week
10mg nolva each day

then during PCT:

? mg Clomid
20mg Nolva

What do u guys think? And has anyone ever heard of Gallo Pharmacuticals?

[Ozzy]

PCT starts at various times according to what compound you happen to run in any given cycle. Do a search under clomid dosages and you should come up with different time lengths.


Peace Oz

[benmooreben]

can i stack m1t with myostim?