Anabolics
Search More Than 6,000,000 Posts
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 100
  1. #1
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    2,502

    Cycle advice (comments on first cycles, doses, eating, etc.)

    Over the last few months, I've received several PM from people asking me about initial cycles and doses. Several of the PM's started out with "So-and-so suggested I contact you/read your posts about doses..." So, I want to thank the AR members who pointed these people in my direction. I take it as a vote of confidence from you, and I sincerely appreciate it.

    Today I received another such PM, so I'm going to post my response here and hopefully get some more eyes on the subject and spark a discussion. Here's an edited version of the response:


    Regarding your cycle:
    Pimoteston (testosterone enanthate ) 250mg every week
    Equipoise 200mg every week:

    A weekly dose of 250mg of Primoteston (testosterone enanthate ) combined with 200mg of equipoise can yield 15 lbs gain of solid muscle. The higher doses (i.e. 400mg) will possibly give you faster gains, but a lot of the weight gain could be contributed to water retention--varies from person to person. If you read my other posts, you'll find that from chatting/reading/discussing, I've found that 400mg per week of testosterone (enan or cyp) tends to yeild 20-24 lbs in 10-12 weeks, while 250mgs per week tends to yeild 15-20lbs in 10-12 weeks.

    It's important that you understand the following:

    1. Many newbie cyclers (no matter what AS [anabolic steroids ] they take) make the mistake of not eating well on their first cycle. After the disappointing cycle, they blame the doses for the lack of growth. However, a low-dose cycle will work wonders ONLY IF you learn to be strict about your eating. You have to eat tons of protein--1.5-2 grams for every pound of your current body weight, which means you can approach your protein/calorie intake two ways:

    a. (The hard way) Keep weighing yourself and adjusting your protein/calorie intake every few days.

    b. (The better way) Add 15 lbs to your current body weight. Make this number your goal weight at the end of the cycle. Eat protein and calories the whole way through your cycle as if you were already this weight. That way, you neither have to re-adjust your protein/calories nor your general cooking/eating routine.

    2. The cycle that you listed will make you grow reasonably. But, I'm telling you right now, if you are not eating, resting and sleeping correctly, then a low dose cycle WILL NOT give you what you want. You must be VERY strict on a low dose cycle--completely disciplined. If you're not diciplined, then don't blame your lack of growth on the low-dose.

    3. You asked about time of effects of your listed cycle:

    a. Due to testosterone, the first effect you will probably experience is a sharp increase in your sex drive (at the very least you will begin experiencing erections during times you normally wouldn't) within 2 - 3 weeks.

    b. Strength will increase from the test within the first 3-4 weeks.

    c. Equipoise will kick in around week 5-6. You'll notice increased pump, increased appetite, increased vascularity, POSSIBLE muscle hardness and POSSIBLE increased strength.

    Every person reacts differently to AS, so take note of all that you're body does and feels during your first cycle and use it to your advantage in your next cycles.

    4. The main idea behind low-dose cycling during initial cycles is to allow you to see how your body reacts to a given AS. If your body responds well at lower doses, then you're set--You've learned to use the lowest amount possible to get your body growing thick muscle quickly.

    If you're in this for the long haul (which may happen since technically AS are considered addictive), then I recommend that people use their first 1 or 2 cycles to experiment and to find out how they react to certain combinations and doses of AS (with a doctor's supervision--Please see my disclaimer/note at the end of this post).

    If you're out for VERY fast growth and you don't have the patience, time, cash or whatever to use initial low doses, then you're always welcome to jump into 400mg per week of this and 500mg per week of that--but I don't recommend it, because when it comes to my health, I am completely type-A. Since AS acts so differently from person to person, I'd rather go slower and play it "safer."

    5. You asked about the gains or 400mg per week versus 200mg per week of testosterone. No, the gains of 400mg per week do not automatically guarantee twice as much muscle as 200mg per week. AS doses not work like that. If it did, there would be far more men and women walking around showing off mountains of muscle. Search through my posts on low doses and you'll find a clear (simplified) explanation of how doses of long-lasting testosterone esters build up in the system to produce effects.

    6. I've addressed this in other posts, but I'll say it again here:

    You said, "I can deal with smaller gains, but I can't deal with the fact that I won't see any gains at all."Here's my answer to that:

    Yes you will grow on low doses. You have to consider who is saying low-doses won't make you grow. You're dealing with a group of people who are already growing faster than normal. Many of these people want to GROW EXTREMELY FAST--faster than fast (I'm focusing on mainly the recreational users who never really plan to compete). Anyone in this group who is growing slower than "super fast” is considered to be "NOT GROWING." But, Anyone who puts any AS in their body above the most minimal therapeutic amount is going to grow faster than the average Joe (or Sue) who is not using steroids. Furthermore, if you are blessed with good genetics, then low-doses of AS will make you grow like a person taking possibly twice the amount.

    Wouldn't you rather learn that your body could grow fast off 200-300mg of testosterone, rather than jumping into 500-600mg while never knowing that for your first few cycles you would have still gained those 15-20 lbs. for less money and POSSIBLY less health risk?

    If you have the patience, time and money, I suggest starting with a low dose cycle. While on low doses, you will grow, and you will have an opportunity to focus on FINE TUNING your diet. Wouldn't it suck to throw away larger doses on a first cycle and not have your diet together? (Actually, you have no business doing a cycle if you aren't already eating, sleeping and working out correctly--but many people jump in anyway, as I've said before).

    Best of luck on your fist cycle. Welcome to the dark side.
    Last edited by BASK8KACE; 03-12-2003 at 03:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Diesel's Avatar
    Diesel is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Mental Institution
    Posts
    2,293
    Bask8,
    Barbells and I have gone round and round with you on low dose cycles etc, etc....
    However, I gotta say, NICE POST!

    D

  3. #3
    OGPackin's Avatar
    OGPackin is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    6,022
    IMO bro ur diet has more to do with weight gain then how much gear ur taking. U can take all the gear u want but if u dont eat right u wont grow no matter how much or little ur taking. Just my .02 on the subject.

    OG

  4. #4
    calidude's Avatar
    calidude is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    LAS VEGAS, NV
    Posts
    1,267
    great post bask8kace

  5. #5
    Rickson's Avatar
    Rickson is offline AR-Hall of Famer
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    5,165
    Remind me never to send you a PM. I can't read that much. Well you know I am a high dose advocate but that is a nice post and deserves a bump.

  6. #6
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    I have to agree diet is key, AAS is just to get an edge not do the work. Low amount of anavar have been show to cause protein sythesis at 15mg on a high protein diet. Which show that you don't need a high dose to get protein systhsis in your favor. Besides if your diet isn't together your going to have a hard time get what you gain.

    I understand some don't reponed to AAS the same way other do. But eveyone need to find out where they are in this.

    My first cycle was 500mg of test and 400mg of EQ. My second cycle is 250mg test e5d and 225mg eq e5d. I'm running it 4 weeks longer then the 10 on my first. I'll see how my body reacts and go from there on my next cycle.

    JohnnyB

  7. #7
    BUYLONGTERM's Avatar
    BUYLONGTERM is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    8,067
    That was the edited reponse he actually sent to me! I was blown away that he took the time to help me!! He truly is a straight up bro! I can't thank him enough!

    Iv'e said it a thousand times, but I got to say it again.... I can't thank you guys enough!!!!! I just wish anyone who is thinking about doing AS, knew to come here first!!!!!!! Everyone here is looking out for everyone's best interest. You guys have helped me beyond my wildest dreams!!

  8. #8
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    WOW, I thought there'd be more discussion on this.

    At least someone giving their reason for high dose cycles for first time users. What some of us would consider a high dose cycle, for a first timer.

    I thought it would be a good discussion, that would help newbies understand both sides of the debate.

    JohnnyB

  9. #9
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    1,266
    I think the whole reason a newbie should stay away from high dose cycle is because... they are a newbie and they will never understand that you need high intensity and high calories to back up those high doses.
    Secondly a newbie has now clue how to diet down properly, in fact it takes a good while before you learn your own body's metabolism when dieting down.
    thirdly, the bro may not understand HPTA therapy

    So now you have either a new bro bloated and no clue how to lean or a bro that just wasted a load of gear because they don’t eat enough or train with enough intensity.

    I am an advocate for low dose maintenance, higher dose growth cycle’s year long.
    good post B8K
    and a bump

  10. #10
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    2,502
    JohnnyB,

    When I first started talking about this subject at this site, there was A LOT of heated, long, detailed debates about low-doses. Most of us on either side of the issue have agreed to disagree pleasently. You can catch a hint of that in Diesel's nice reply to this thread.

    If others want to read the earlier discussions on this subject, you can do a search on "low-dose."

    Originally posted by JohnnyB
    WOW, I thought there'd be more discussion on this.

    At least someone giving their reason for high dose cycles for first time users. What some of us would consider a high dose cycle, for a first timer.

    I thought it would be a good discussion, that would help newbies understand both sides of the debate.

    JohnnyB
    Last edited by BASK8KACE; 03-12-2003 at 10:09 PM.

  11. #11
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    Yeah Bro I know there have been debates on this. I remember KAZ used to bring it up. When I was new here and I loved reading them to help me make my decision on cycle doses. I think debate over these types of thing are great, to help people make their decision, on which way they'll go.

    My take is that high doses, bring higher chance of side effects. How many BB's in the 70 and 80 had gyno.

    JohnnyB

  12. #12
    Cock Diesel155's Avatar
    Cock Diesel155 is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Mid-Atlantic
    Posts
    372
    bump, hell of a good post fellas

  13. #13
    painintheazz's Avatar
    painintheazz is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Boston area
    Posts
    3,352
    Bump to the top, nice post basket. DIET IS THE KEY.... (sorry had to throw that in there.)


    Pain

  14. #14
    Diesel's Avatar
    Diesel is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Mental Institution
    Posts
    2,293
    Originally posted by BASK8KACE
    JohnnyB,

    When I first started talking about this subject at this site, there was A LOT of heated, long, detailed debates about low-doses. Most of us on either side of the issue have agreed to disagree pleasently. You can catch a hint of that in Diesel's nice reply to this thread.


    You have to admit that those debates were fun bask8.

    D

  15. #15
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    2,502
    Originally posted by Diesel


    You have to admit that those debates were fun bask8.

    D
    Definitely, Diesel--I agree.

  16. #16
    hybrid's Avatar
    hybrid is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    651
    This is an extremely interesting read. It brings out two different thought for me.
    First, I would agree for the average first time user of AS, going with lower doses and getting the rest of your shop (diet, rest workout) in order is a good point. Problem is, first time users that don't have the other parts of their life in order are not of the mindset to get them in order just because they are going on a cycle. Discipline is the key to the equation. And as I have read many times, the reality of it is, you should not even consider going on AS until your diet is impecable (you eat clean and for the right reasons and know what to do to bulk or cut up) and you workout gains are stalled even when on a motivated well thought out program. So lower doses or not, the person who doesn't have their life in order (as it relates to working out and diet) shouldn't even consider doing a cycle. But many do, I suppose. I have read posts on here where guys post that they are on their 3rd or 4th cycle and then post their height and weight and I just shake my head. These people are not getting it.
    The second group of first time AS users are the ones that know their body and their motivation level. They can tell you their diet to a T (breakdown of carbs, <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a>, fat). They know what to do to cut up and to bulk up. They are motivated in the gym, know how to workout without overtraining and are dedicated to the endeavor. They know the importance of rest and recovery. For this group, I believe that even never having been on a cycle, they will be able to feel what is happening to their body while on a cycle and will know how to adapt and change things to meet their needs. For them, I think that the cycle should be predicated on research and information (oh, and I suppose money always comes into play doesn't it).
    So I don't think that for the first time user, the difference between 250 and 500 mgs of test a week is as important as is the dedication to the lifestyle of fitness.
    Because that is what I have found is the prevailing theme of all good athletes regardless of their sport. Working out is not a chore. Eating clean is not something you just have to do. Cardio is not a necessary evil (ok, maybe the cardio thing is going too far). These things are a chosen lifestyle that I see many on this board embracing. Working out hard, eating clean, growing...it's not what you do, it's who you are.

  17. #17
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    hybird, good post.

    I don't think there's a problem with 250-500mg of test for a first timer. I think the problem start when they start adding 400mg of another AAS, then 25-40mg of d-bol. That's over gram a week of AAS for a first time user. The average first cycle recommendation is 500mg a week of test with 400mg of EQ or Deca . Then some add d-bol @ 25mg a day(usually higher) that's 175mg a week or 50mg ed of winny which is 350mg a week.

    Rumor has it that Arnold used 600mg of primo a week and 50mg of d-bol ed, that's less then a gram. I don't think Arnold started there. Mike Mentzer used 400mg of deca ew and 20mg of d-bol ed,(that's 540mg of total AAS) to prepare for the '80 Mr. O and that was considered a high dose. As I mentioned before, these guys don't have problems with side effect, like the BBs of today do.

    I think the more AAS you use to help you gain, the more help your going need to get them. But that's JMO

    JohnnyB

  18. #18
    hybrid's Avatar
    hybrid is offline Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    651
    Good points.

    I think patience is key to developing a good strategy. Everyone always wants the quick fixes.
    As for the older guys, it would be interesting to know what they were taking and what if any they still are. Arnold is still a fairly big guy. I wonder how long after his BB career he stayed on AS?

  19. #19
    Methuselah's Avatar
    Methuselah is offline Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    708
    Awesome post. Your opinions with low dose and diet are right on. There is no need to spend twice as much on a cycle as necessary. IMO, doses of test, eq or deca over 400mg are never needed. Eating and exercise have everything to do with the results.

  20. #20
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    Originally posted by hybrid
    Arnold is still a fairly big guy. I wonder how long after his BB career he stayed on AS?
    That would be interesting to know.

    JohnnyB

  21. #21
    JohnnyB's Avatar
    JohnnyB is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Califas
    Posts
    9,265
    I think we need to remember that we are dealing with drugs here. With any drug be it recreational or performance, your body will build up a tolerance to it. You'll need more as time goes on, why start were Arnold ended. You'll be doing massive amounts and still won't be the size of the BBs of today. Where does it end? JMO

    JohnnyB

  22. #22
    painintheazz's Avatar
    painintheazz is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Boston area
    Posts
    3,352
    Originally posted by JohnnyB
    I think we need to remember that we are dealing with drugs here. With any drug be it recreational or performance, your body will build up a tolerance to it. You'll need more as time goes on, why start were Arnold ended. You'll be doing massive amounts and still won't be the size of the BBs of today. Where does it end? JMO

    JohnnyB
    Also they are addictive just like any recreational drug, I think that is where a lot of the problem comes from.

    Pain

  23. #23
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    2,502
    I just got an PM regarding this post. I wanted to post it here, so if anyone else had the same question, they could find it, and people could comment/add to it.

    This post has a few calculations in it. If you go through it slowly, you'll understand it very easily.

    Here's the PM I received:
    Hey bro got a question about dieting. You said " (The better way) Add 15 lbs to your current body weight. Make this number your goal weight at the end of the cycle. Eat protein and calories the whole way through your cycle as if you were already this weight. That way, you neither have to re-adjust your protein/calories nor your general cooking/eating routines " so is this the weight that i use and then Xs that weight by 1.5-2 for protein? Is this the same as if i were to want to get cut up for summer? any kind of gelp would work since i am about to begin my first stack.
    Yes that is correct. For the sake of demonstration, let's say you weigh 85 lbs and you want to gain 15 lbs on your first cycle, then you would use 100lbs (85lbs + 15lbs) as your weight when calculating any food consumption. The traditional way to do this is to use 1.5 times your weight. So 1.5 x 100= 150 grams of protein per day.

    Now we know that 1 gram of protein = 1 gram of carbohydrates = 4 calories (in other words protein and carbohydrates both yeild 4 calories per gram). We also know that fat yeilds 9 calories per gram).

    There's one more piece that's missing before you do the rest: You have to determine what your maintenance calorie intake is. I'm about to tell you the quick and dirty way. You have to have to keep track of your calories and determine at what level of calories you start loosing weight (Bad! Not eating enough); at what level of calories you maintain your weight--neither growing nor losing weight (Okay. But the point is to grow); at what level of calories you start gaining muscle weight steadily (Excellent! That's what we're after); and what weight you gain muscle but a lot of fat (Bad! We want to look good).

    Once you determine your maintenance weight ("Okay"), you add several calories to it until you find your growth level ("Excellent").

    Let's assume you've done all the experimenting and keeping track of your food intake. You find find that at 2000 cal, you maintain; at 3000 cal, you grow; and at 4000, you put on too much fat. So, you have determined that the amount of calories you want to eat per day is 3000.

    Now, back to the calculations:
    Generally your fat should be 10-15% of diet calories, the protein is determined by the calculations above and your carbohydrates should be the rest. You've determined that you need 150 grams of protein per day. So 150 grams of protein X 4 calories per gram = 600 calories of protien. So 3000 calories (your daily calorie intake determined above) - 600 = 2400. 10% of fat = 3000 X 0.10 = 300 fat calories (300/9 = approximately 33 grams of fat per day) and the rest is carbohydrate calories (3000 total daily calories - 600 protein calories - 300 fat calories = 2100 carbohydrate calories). 2100/4 = approximately 525 grams of carbohydrates. Remember these numbers are skewed terribly because we originally assumed you were only 85 lbs trying to add 15 lbs. Your numbers will look different when you do the actual calculations for your true weight and goals.

    So to go from 85lbs to a huge 100lbs of total body weight you would need to eat the following:

    3000 cal per day consisting of:
    a. 33 grams of fat per day = 300 calories (approximately)
    b. 150 grams of protein per day = 600 calories
    c. 525 grams of carbs per day = 2100 calories

    If you are getting to fat or not gaining enough, add or subtract calories by adjusting only your carbs.

    Let me know if you need anything else.

    Best of luck. Lift hard.

    P.S.
    You have to adjust your calories and use cardio to get cut. Since this is your first cycle, I would focus on bulking first and cutting later. It's very hard to do both at the same time. Your first cycle, if done correctly, will probably yeild your biggest gains you'll ever get on any cycle (lasting for the same amount of time as your first).

    So, yes, your protein intake should remain the same. Just adjust your carbs as noted above.

  24. #24
    Animal Cracker's Avatar
    Animal Cracker is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Va Beach
    Posts
    3,658
    great post...a must read for alot of folks!

  25. #25
    Red5 is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    257
    Originally posted by JohnnyB
    hybird, good post.

    I don't think there's a problem with 250-500mg of test for a first timer. I think the problem start when they start adding 400mg of another AAS, then 25-40mg of d-bol. That's over gram a week of AAS for a first time user. The average first cycle recommendation is 500mg a week of test with 400mg of EQ or Deca . Then some add d-bol @ 25mg a day(usually higher) that's 175mg a week or 50mg ed of winny which is 350mg a week.

    Rumor has it that Arnold used 600mg of primo a week and 50mg of d-bol ed, that's less then a gram. I don't think Arnold started there. Mike Mentzer used 400mg of deca ew and 20mg of d-bol ed,(that's 540mg of total AAS) to prepare for the '80 Mr. O and that was considered a high dose. As I mentioned before, these guys don't have problems with side effect, like the BBs of today do.

    I think the more AAS you use to help you gain, the more help your going need to get them. But that's JMO

    JohnnyB
    Absolutly right.We shouldn't be encouraging first time users to take a gram of gear a week, there is just no need for it.

  26. #26
    BUYLONGTERM's Avatar
    BUYLONGTERM is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    8,067
    Damn, he makes total sense and has really helped me tweak my diet. He is such an asset to this board, I can't even begin to tell you!!!!!!

    BUMP, BUMP, BUMP!!!!

    Thanks bro!!

  27. #27
    calidude's Avatar
    calidude is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    LAS VEGAS, NV
    Posts
    1,267
    This Is Such A Good Thread I Had To Bump It!!!!

  28. #28
    LM1332 Guest
    bump

  29. #29
    freakmaster's Avatar
    freakmaster is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    timbucktu
    Posts
    69
    I think a the most overlooked factor in gaining on a AS cycle is the person doing the cycle. I mean, is this person a bodybuilder or a lifter? Big difference. Do they have their **** together, or don't they? Just because a person may be a newbie as far as using AS goes, but that does not tell the tale as far as the level of Bodybuilding knowledge that they know, whether it is training or nutrition. Maximus25 said in his post that a newbie would not have the nutrition in place to take advantage or intensity required to take full advantage of AS. Not to flame Maximus25(please don't take it as such), just to make a point in the misconception that the term "newbie" is referred to a person who has little bodybuilding knowledge and nutrition knowledge. A person who has extensive knowledge of Bodybuilding and nutrition will gain more and have better results than a person who has moderate or little bodybuilding knowledge and use the same dosages of AS, regardless of genetic factors. Although this plays a role in overall gains in regards to AS use, the experiance of the person doing the cycle plays a far greater role where gains are concerned. You can have a newbie who has trained for 10 years and weighs 230lbs and does a cycle and goes up to 250lbs on moderate dosages. You can also have a person who has did 5 cycles who weighs 250lbs. But who is the better bodybuilder, and who would gain more from a moderate dose of AS? Or a large dose? Another factor is bodysurface area(The Mosteller¹ formula(BSA (m²) = ( [Height(cm) x Weight(kg) ]/ 3600 )½ e.g. BSA = SQRT( (cm*kg)/3600 )
    . As well liver function and drug history and many many factors that if mentioned would fill up many posts. Your thoughts.
    Last edited by freakmaster; 08-08-2004 at 04:30 AM.

  30. #30
    Tryin2getHUGE's Avatar
    Tryin2getHUGE is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Where I lay my head
    Posts
    1,526
    I will comment on this since it has been bumped to current day. I think because of the fact, like someone mentioned earlier, that MOST new people starting out on AAS DO NOT have their diet in order, or a solid routine and schedule. If they are on small dosages and are not in a position to follow these strict guidlines and GET ALL these things in order, they will have crappy results. Which IMO leads to higher dosages for new people because the more gear they use, the more things they do wrong they can compensate for with the gear and get away with it.

    My question is, If you are a new person and say are ONLY going to do 4 cycles, and you are SERIOUS about doing only 4, how much MORE harm do you do if you do 4 heavy dosed cycles properly, with all supps and anciliaries, versuses if you do 6 or 7 low dosage cycles over a longer period of time?

  31. #31
    Tryin2getHUGE's Avatar
    Tryin2getHUGE is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Where I lay my head
    Posts
    1,526
    BTW............ Great post and great feedback and responses by all. This is a very educating thread. Great job bro's!!

  32. #32
    freakmaster's Avatar
    freakmaster is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    timbucktu
    Posts
    69
    I thought it was supposed to be the other way around. You should not use gear unless you are a educated bodybuilder in training and nutrition. Period. I believe that most AS users would advise a newbie not to use gear, unless they are a experienced bodybuilder and know how to eat and train properly to get the most out of their cycle. Just what are they a newbie of? Usually it pertains to AS usage and should not pertain to the persons Bodybuilding knowledge unless that info is given. When giving advice to a new AS user, you should ask for their level of development and their grasp on bodybuilding in training and nutrition before you give advice. As far as your dosage question is concerned, you should use the dose that gives you optimal gains with less side effects. The heavier the dosage the more side effects with diminished returns. I balk at people using 2gms of test for a cycle. That is just ridiclious. You will not gain twice as much muscle on 2gms of test as opposed to 1gm(still to much) but you can bet on getting more sides with the higher dosages.

  33. #33
    Tribex's Avatar
    Tribex is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Jungle
    Posts
    373
    Another great thread by Bask8, awesome bro, very good points and informative.

  34. #34
    UnNaturalBuff is offline Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    867
    Bump for newbies, great read here

  35. #35
    NotSmall is offline English Rudeboy
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    5,223
    Would you guys mind casting your eyes over my next cycle and telling me if it looks sensible. It is a little higher dosage on the test than I have run previously and I have never run tren or primo before, all other cycles have been sust, deca & dbol or sust, deca & winstrol .

    It is posted here:

    Progress so far this year, now for GH!

    Thanks guys, I appreciate it.

  36. #36
    craneboy's Avatar
    craneboy is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    nor*cal
    Posts
    1,540
    a really good post!

  37. #37
    O.T's Avatar
    O.T
    O.T is offline Associate Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    192
    awesome info!

  38. #38
    CubsRock's Avatar
    CubsRock is offline New Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1
    wow, great read.
    Thanks Bask8

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,393

    I beg to differ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BASK8KACE
    5. You asked about the gains or 400mg per week versus 200mg per week of testosterone. No, the gains of 400mg per week do not automatically guarantee twice as much muscle as 200mg per week. AS doses not work like that.
    Actually, in most cases, thats exactly how they work. Ceteris Paribus, a higher dose means more gains, especially with Testosterone . You'll lose more fat and gain more muscle on 400mgs than 200. Double? Yeah...maybe...

    Here's a study showing you lose more fat when you use more Testosterone:


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Feb;89(2):718-26.


    Dose-dependent effects of testosterone on regional adipose tissue distribution in healthy young men.

    Woodhouse LJ, Gupta N, Bhasin M, Singh AB, Ross R, Phillips J, Bhasin S.

    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

    Testosterone supplementation reduces total body adipose tissue (AT), but we do not know whether the effects are uniformly distributed throughout the body or are region specific, or whether they are dose related. We determined the effects of graded doses of testosterone on regional AT distribution in 54 healthy men (18-35 yr) in a 20-wk, randomized, double-blind study of combined treatment with GnRH agonist plus one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE). Total body, appendicular, and trunk AT and lean body mass were measured by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, and sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT of the thigh and abdomen were measured by magnetic resonance imaging. Treatment regimens resulted in serum nadir testosterone concentrations ranging from subphysiological to supraphysiological levels. Dose-dependent changes in AT mass were negatively correlated with TE dose at all sites and were equally distributed between the trunk and appendices. The lowest dose was associated with gains in sc, intermuscular, and intraabdominal AT, with the greatest percent increase occurring in the sc stores. At the three highest TE doses, thigh intermuscular AT volume was significantly reduced, with a greater percent loss in intermuscular than sc depots, whereas intraabdominal AT stores remained unchanged. . LoweIn conclusion, changes in testosterone concentrations in young men are associated with dose-dependent and region-specific changes in AT and lean body mass in the appendices and trunk Lowerring testosterone concentrations below baseline increases sc and deep AT stores in the appendices and abdomen, with a greater percent increase in sc depots. Conversely, elevating testosterone concentrations above baseline induces a greater loss of AT from the smaller, deeper intermuscular stores of the thigh.





    And since I'm on a roll, here's a study showing that you gain more muscle on higher doses of testosterone:


    Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 May;284(5):E1009-17. Epub 2003 Jan 07.


    Development of models to predict anabolic response to testosterone administration in healthy young men.

    Woodhouse LJ, Reisz-Porszasz S, Javanbakht M, Storer TW, Lee M, Zerounian H, Bhasin S.

    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, 1731 E. 120th Street, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.

    Considerable heterogeneity exists in the anabolic response to androgen administration; however, the factors that contribute to variation in an individual's anabolic response to androgens remain unknown. We investigated whether testosterone dose and/or any combination of baseline variables, including concentrations of hormones, age, body composition, muscle function, and morphometry or polymorphisms in androgen receptor could explain the variability in anabolic response to testosterone. Fifty-four young men were treated with a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist and one of five doses (25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg/wk) of testosterone enanthate (TE) for 20 wk. Anabolic response was defined as a change in whole body fat-free mass (FFM) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), appendicular FFM (by DEXA), and thigh muscle volume (by magnetic resonance imaging) during TE treatment. We used univariate and multivariate analysis to identify the subset of baseline measures that best explained the variability in anabolic response to testosterone supplementation. The three-variable model of TE dose, age, and baseline prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level explained 67% of the variance in change in whole body FFM. Change in appendicular FFM was best explained (64% of the variance) by the linear combination of TE dose, baseline PSA, and leg press strength, whereas TE dose, log of the ratio of luteinizing hormone to testosterone concentration, and age explained 66% of the variation in change in thigh muscle volume. The models were further validated by using Ridge analysis and cross-validation in data subsets. Only the model using testosterone dose, age, and PSA was a consistent predictor of change in FFM in subset analyses. The length of CAG tract was only a weak predictor of change in thigh muscle volume and lean body mass. Hence, the anabolic response of healthy, young men to exogenous testosterone administration can largely be predicted by the testosterone dose.

  40. #40
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    2,502
    Hooker,

    I told you I'm not going to turn this into a grand battle between us. But I do appreciate the studies you've posted.

    It doesn't change the fact that many people get excellent results on low doses.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •